Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Boudicca90]

BTW, I have personal connections with transgender people. They are old-fashioned transexuals who, while presenting as "women", know they are still male and don't claim to be women just like other women. In the transactivist community these people are sometimes called truscum.

So these people "know they are still male", so they have a male gender identity but present as women? Sounds more like your friends are cross dressers. Which is also fine, but wouldn't make them transgender necessarily.

And I looked up "truscum" and it looks like that term would refer to a transgender person who believes it is necessary to have dysphoria and medically transition to be trans. So a transperson who thinks non-binary people aren't trans would be truscum.

 

[LondonJohn]

Gotta love a debate in which one POV tends to be reasonably high-information, while the other POV tends to be reasonably low-information

 

[Boudicca90]

BTW, I have personal connections with transgender people. They are old-fashioned transexuals who, while presenting as "women", know they are still male and don't claim to be women just like other women. In the transactivist community these people are sometimes called truscum.

I was thinking of what was mentioned before about how the old way of treating us with therapy was apparently to convince us we will never be the gender we see ourselves as. So I would be convinced I could never truly be a woman but that I can live as a man living as a woman.

Sounds like a form of conversion therapy to me, but it would explain your "old-fashioned transsexual" friends. They probably went through that kind of therapy and can't really accept themselves as they truly are.

 

[LondonJohn]

I was thinking of what was mentioned before about how the old way of treating us with therapy was apparently to convince us we will never be the gender we see ourselves as. So I would be convinced I could never truly be a woman but that I can live as a man living as a woman.

Sounds like a form of conversion therapy to me, but it would explain your "old-fashioned transsexual" friends. They probably went through that kind of therapy and can't really accept themselves as they truly are.

It's easy to find references to a time - not so very long ago - when medical thinking was that you could "cure" homosexuals of their "disorder".

Fortunately, the medical community - and society in general - now understand that homosexuality is a valid condition (and is not the product of a mental disorder).

And fortunately, the medical community - and the more progressive & enlightened members of society in general - now understand that gender dysmorphia and transgender issues are valid conditions (and are not the product of a mental disorder).

Compare.

 

[Boudicca90]

It's easy to find references to a time - not so very long ago - when medical thinking was that you could "cure" homosexuals of their "disorder".

Fortunately, the medical community - and society in general - now understand that homosexuality is a valid condition (and is not the product of a mental disorder).

And fortunately, the medical community - and the more progressive & enlightened members of society in general - now understand that gender dysmorphia and transgender issues are valid conditions (and are not the product of a mental disorder).

Compare.

All good points, but apparently we can't compare transgender issues with any others, despite the glaring similarities.

We don't want to diminish the struggles of other rights movements by noting similarities with ours after all...

 

[Olmstead]

It's easy to find references to a time - not so very long ago - when medical thinking was that you could "cure" homosexuals of their "disorder".

Fortunately, the medical community - and society in general - now understand that homosexuality is a valid condition (and is not the product of a mental disorder).

And fortunately, the medical community - and the more progressive & enlightened members of society in general - now understand that gender dysmorphia and transgender issues are valid conditions (and are not the product of a mental disorder).

Compare.

Homosexuality is literally a preference. A preference can't be factually wrong.

Gender dysphoria is the feeling of a man/woman that they are a woman/man. It's factually wrong.

It's hardly comparable.

 

[LondonJohn]

Homosexuality is literally a preference. A preference can't be factually wrong.

Gender dysphoria is the feeling of a man/woman that they are a woman/man. It's factually wrong.

It's hardly comparable.

Why - by your choice of definitions - isn't a wish to inhabit another gender a "preference"?

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

It's easy to find references to a time - not so very long ago - when medical thinking was that you could "cure" homosexuals of their "disorder".

Fortunately, the medical community - and society in general - now understand that homosexuality is a valid condition (and is not the product of a mental disorder).

And fortunately, the medical community - and the more progressive & enlightened members of society in general - now understand that gender dysmorphia and transgender issues are valid conditions (and are not the product of a mental disorder).

Compare.

Actually, I think you are the only person who recognises gender dysmorphia.

 

[Olmstead]

Why - by your choice of definitions - isn't a wish to inhabit another gender a "preference"?

It is, but we're not discussing whether a transwoman truly WANTS to be a woman. We're discussing whether a transwoman truly IS a woman.

No one was ever discussing whether homosexuals truly ARE attracted to the same sex*. They simply misguidedly claimed that they SHOULDN'T be.

Very few people here actually claim that a transwoman shouldn't WANT to be a woman or live her live as she sees fit. The contention is whether a transwoman IS a woman (which does depend on the definition you're going with somewhat, but some people love to use compliance with one definition to somehow include other definitions as well).


*I guess there were some religious types that believed homosexuals were doing it on purpose to, I don't know, make Jesus cry and score points with Satan or something, but that's a whole different level of crazy.

 

[Earthborn]

But I don't think that my condition is sufficient to argue that the building should get rid of fire alarms.

It is sufficient to argue that the owners of the building warn you ahead of time when they plan a fire drill, and probably that they have a duty to research whether there are fire alarms that cause less distress for epileptics.

It gets hairier when we start talking about sex-segregated spaces and services, prisons, scholarships, and other things that are supposed to help advance equality for women, and which transwomen are asking to have the same access to.

The people responsible for those probably have a duty to show that segregation in these cases actually does advance equality, and are not just "separate but equal" things that fail to be equal.

And full surgical transition if you want to be in the female prison ward,

Demanding invasive medical procedures as part of punishment gets creepy really fast, and if your prison system is unable to ensure the safety of its prisoners, throwing female appearing prisoners who for whatever reason did not have surgery into the male prison ward isn't reasonable either.

Where we end up differing is in the claim that a transwoman is as much of a woman as a natal women, in every meaningful sense of the word "woman".

Of course that is not a claim anyone makes. The claim is just that transwomen are is much of a woman as a natal woman in the ways that matter socially.

Biological and anatomical sex differences are real, and meaningful.

Nobody denies these sex differences are real; least of which the people who wish they weren't.

 

[Earthborn]

Medical conditions can trigger illusionary beliefs.

Talk about illusory beliefs... The idea that there is some huge industry making extreme profits by getting as many people to change sex as possible... That is some bonkers conspiracy theory right there.

 

[d4m10n]

...I don't know anybody that has the view that it's perfectly okay to whip out their penis in women's facilities.

How does this square with your earlier statements about equal access and equal rights as between cis women and trans women? Assuming members of the former group enjoy the unfettered right to walk about nude in some designated space, wouldn't members of the latter group enjoy the same?

I don't answer that question anymore.

You don't have to, of course, but it's really hard to nail down the essential quality unique to womanhood which is shared by cis women and trans women (but not by men) without spending some time and effort unpacking gender identity itself.

 

[Earthborn]

Assuming members of the former group enjoy the unfettered right to walk about nude in some designated space, wouldn't members of the latter group enjoy the same?

I didn't know we were talking about nudist colonies. I also don't think any are segregated. I thought we were talking about places where seeing other people's bits is accidental.

 

[8enotto]

Women, real biological women demanded health care facilities that specially cover the woman. I can't go there, the hospital general is available to me.
And that is fine, it makes a difference in a good way.

An unused facility in Mex City is being converted into a trans specific facility as this is being typed. It will be staffed with specialist types and probably a pile of psychologist types currently out of work to cater specifically to trans needs.

There has been zero backlash that this is segregation, in fact its rather firmly embraced as acceptance from the federal level.

From what I read in this thread it should be a wing of the women's hospitals, leaving trans men hanging on to hope the regular facilities can give proper care.
This is the sticky wicket for to trans lobbyists, they can't demand what they do and not exclude some of thier own.
Can they really decide who gets thrown in front of the bus too? Because someone will be.

 

[Earthborn]

From what I read in this thread it should be a wing of the women's hospitals,

Who in this thread has been arguing this?

 

[Boudicca90]

How does this square with your earlier statements about equal access and equal rights as between cis women and trans women? Assuming members of the former group enjoy the unfettered right to walk about nude in some designated space, wouldn't members of the latter group enjoy the same?

It's more about respect for other people.

A trans woman who has had GRS and has a vagina? I see nothing wrong. A trans woman who still has their penis? A lot of cis women would have a problem with that, so it's best to cover that up.

And personally I think everybody should keep their genitals to themselves, but then I'm not the type who would walk around naked in front of strangers in the first place. I tend to value my privacy.

 

[Emily's Cat]

With all respect, every orthodox believer tells me their beliefs are one with reality.

Objective reality is a thing.

Regarding your comment about hormones, I was intending to refer to the un-intervened state. A transperson claims to be trans prior to any medical or psychological therapy. The argument is that there is something inherent and naturally occurring that makes them "internally" a gender different from their sex. I've seen no material and predictable evidence to support that claim. It's based on a belief and a feeling.

What would you say to those who claim gender identity^WP is a distinct, stable, measurable psychological characteristic which nearly everyone has?

I'd say... show me the evidence and the measurements, and show me how those measurements are material and predictable.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why should I when you won't do the same? It's not about understanding the perspective of women, it's about "knowing our place" essentially and not demanding too many rights, or at least up to a point where our rights make you uncomfortable.

You ARE overreacting, your concerns ARE overblown. It's not about you being a woman and me being a man (in your eyes), it's about you being bigoted to anybody that doesn't fit your narrow definition of what a woman is.

You, like the other TERFs in this thread, will always see us as men and will always use that against us like this. And I don't have to justify myself to you or anybody else here who are demanding to determine how much of a woman I am. Remember? "Well, harsh as it sounds... yes. It is real women versus men who want to be women. I know that's not kind, and it's not gender affirming, but it is reality." Sure, you aren't misgendering us, we are just men who want to be women and your tolerance depends on how well we can "fool you"

And now we're back full circle, putting the lie to your claims to be reasonable. Despite the fact that my position and your position are almost entirely identical (in fact, your preference for testosterone levels in sports is lower than mine), when I disagree with your feelings, I get labeled a TERF and a bigot, and you simply dismiss my perspective.

The take-away seems to be that natal women should "know their place" and stay silent and let transwomen do whatever they want and drive the narrative... with no consideration at all given to what it does to natal women.

It is not misgendering to acknowledge the reality that you are an adult male person who wants to be a female person. Regardless of what terminology you wedge in there, that is the objective reality.

I refer to you with your preferred pronouns at every turn. I have not and am not misgendering you in any way.

It seems as though your beef is with actual real biology not conforming to your desires. You are male. I will treat you as a woman in every reasonable sense of the word, and I will be courteous - I won't even apply demeaning labels intended to rob you of your humanity and your voice (like TERF and bigot), because I'm a nice person who cares about others. But I cannot alter reality for you, nor can I willfully rewire my brain into erasing a core element of my own identity and making it completely devoid of meaning so that you are more satisfied with your life.

Why should I have to give up my identity in order for you to be happy? What makes you more important than me?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't answer that question anymore.

I used to, at least to the best of my ability. This is a process for me too. But it was never good enough for the person who asks it of me. Or they think I am clinging to stereotypes of female behavior, or that i'm not woman enough for them based on what they believe women should be like.

So I just don't answer it, because like I said, I don't have to justify myself to anyone here.

The Bible says that it's the Word of God. Therefore it's the Word of God, because the Bible says so.

You claim to be as much of a woman as a natal women... because you claim to be. You claim to be a woman, and allow no discussion of what that means, simply because you assert it to be true.

Here's a very serious question, that I think deserves some consideration: If people who have been women their entire lives, in every meaning of the word, disagree with your definition of what they are... why do you feel that your definition of what a woman is has more validity than theirs does? Why is your concept of womanhood more accurate than the concept of womanhood put forth by women who have the lived experience of women and the biology of women?

If a white man were to create a definition of "blackness", and black men disagreed that his definition was accurate or meaningful... do you think it would be at all reasonable for that white man to insist that his definition of a thing he has no direct knowledge of - either biologically or experientially - is the right definition of "blackness"? Would you find it moot to accuse the black men of being racists and bigots for not accepting that white man's definition in preference to their own?

 

[d4m10n]

I didn't know we were talking about nudist colonies.

LOL. We were not.

Perhaps you've never been to locker rooms wherein (typically older) folks feel free to stroll about completely in the buff. If so, good for you, but try not to generalize from your experience to all the other locker rooms.