Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Rolfe]

delurking

Gender seems to be little more than an aspect of personality. Everyone should be free to express their personality in any way that's legal and doesn't interfere with the rights of others. It doesn't make you the opposite sex though, nor should it confer any rights or privileges that are reserved for the sex you aren't.

/delurking

 

[Ziggurat]

Gender is biopsychosocial in nature. It is not entirely biological or something society puts on you, but rather a feedback loop where your biology influences your psychology and how you react and interact with society, which then influences your biology through brain development and epigenetics.

At least that is my theory, we are still learning about and studying the intricacies of gender so that may change with new research.

It is unlikely we will learn much through research right now. The topic is too politicized. Research is basically forbidden if there's a chance it might come to politically inconvenient conclusions. Best to not even study the subject unless it's some trivial or obvious aspect that can't generate real controversy.

I mentioned something earlier in the thread before you joined, an issue which deserves research but probably won't get any: the possible role of chimerism in transgender people. If you aren't familiar with chimerism, it's basically when a fraternal twin embryo gets absorbed during early development. So you end up with a person that has two distinct sets of genes in their body. But because of the way development occurs, cells with these different genes are not randomly or uniformly mixed through the body. Instead, certain parts of the body will be all one set and other parts will be all the other part. Sometimes chimerism produces visible results, but not always. Many people which chimerism don't even know it.

So what's this got to do with transgenderism? Well, one of the aspects of chimerism that's gotten essentially no attention is what happens if the two sets of genes aren't of the same sex. For example, what happens if your nervous system is genetically female but your reproductive system is genetically male, or vice versa? We don't have a clue, actually, because nobody has gone looking. Nor are they likely to any time soon.

 

[Boudicca90]

It is unlikely we will learn much through research right now. The topic is too politicized. Research is basically forbidden if there's a chance it might come to politically inconvenient conclusions. Best to not even study the subject unless it's some trivial or obvious aspect that can't generate real controversy.

I mentioned something earlier in the thread before you joined, an issue which deserves research but probably won't get any: the possible role of chimerism in transgender people. If you aren't familiar with chimerism, it's basically when a fraternal twin embryo gets absorbed during early development. So you end up with a person that has two distinct sets of genes in their body. But because of the way development occurs, cells with these different genes are not randomly or uniformly mixed through the body. Instead, certain parts of the body will be all one set and other parts will be all the other part. Sometimes chimerism produces visible results, but not always. Many people which chimerism don't even know it.

So what's this got to do with transgenderism? Well, one of the aspects of chimerism that's gotten essentially no attention is what happens if the two sets of genes aren't of the same sex. For example, what happens if your nervous system is genetically female but your reproductive system is genetically male, or vice versa? We don't have a clue, actually, because nobody has gone looking. Nor are they likely to any time soon.

Sounds more like you think gender shouldn't be studied because of the chance that your beliefs will be invalidated. It's not politicized at all.

The chimarism theory is interesting, I personally also believe that gender starts in the womb, but through hormonal influences and other developmental factors for the fetus. Then once we are born, the outside world starts to have more influence on our biology and gender differences become more pronounced as a person ages and develops.

 

[theprestige]

Gender is biopsychosocial in nature. It is not entirely biological or something society puts on you, but rather a feedback loop where your biology influences your psychology and how you react and interact with society, which then influences your biology through brain development and epigenetics.

Ten dollar words aside, I like this description. It expresses my perception of the issue much better than my attempts. Thanks!

 

[Joe Random]

Sounds more like you think gender shouldn't be studied because of the chance that your beliefs will be invalidated. It's not politicized at all.
<...>

 

[Ziggurat]

Sounds more like you think gender shouldn't be studied because of the chance that your beliefs will be invalidated.

That's the message you got from my post? Wow. I really don't know how you could misread it so badly.

It's not politicized at all.

I can only assume that you don't actually know how academia operates nowdays. Everything that can be politicized is politicized.

The chimarism theory is interesting

Yes, it is. But nobody will touch it with a ten foot pole.

 

[Boudicca90]

That's the message you got from my post? Wow. I really don't know how you could misread it so badly.



I can only assume that you don't actually know how academia operates nowdays. Everything that can be politicized is politicized.



Yes, it is. But nobody will touch it with a ten foot pole.

I just don't think that there is any subject off the table as far as research is concerned, publishing it and getting peer-reviewed support on the other hand might get some pushback based on the research itself. A study on pedophilia for example that ends up trying to justify the normalization of pedophilia as a conclusion will rightfully get a lot of pushback.

Just like everyone has the right to free speech, but nobody has a right to a platform for that speech.

 

[Ziggurat]

I just don't think that there is any subject off the table as far as research is concerned, publishing it and getting peer-reviewed support on the other hand might get some pushback based on the research itself.

I was correct, you don't understand academia. There are very much areas of research which are effectively off limits.

A study on pedophilia for example that ends up trying to justify the normalization of pedophilia as a conclusion will rightfully get a lot of pushback.

It takes far less than that to be driven out of academia.

 

[Crawtator]

I just don't think that there is any subject off the table as far as research is concerned, publishing it and getting peer-reviewed support on the other hand might get some pushback based on the research itself. A study on pedophilia for example that ends up trying to justify the normalization of pedophilia as a conclusion will rightfully get a lot of pushback.

Just like everyone has the right to free speech, but nobody has a right to a platform for that speech.

Ummmm....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

No statement being made about the quality of research, but certainly some topics are very taboo for research.

 

[MisAndreG]

delurking

Gender seems to be little more than an aspect of personality. Everyone should be free to express their personality in any way that's legal and doesn't interfere with the rights of others. It doesn't make you the opposite sex though, nor should it confer any rights or privileges that are reserved for the sex you aren't.

/delurking

I think it’s synonymous with sex for 99% of people. I mean my gender is my sex and I think it’s that way for everyone who isn’t disordered or w/e the word for feeling like your gender isn’t aligning with your sex is (I’m tired and I forget). But yeah I’m with you — we live in a society that gives people a wide birth to behave however they want as long as it harms no one plus the privileges thing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

... because we are women, period...

In what way? What does the term "woman" mean to you? Is that usage similar to how the term has been used for millennia?

 

[Ziggurat]

Ummmm....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

No statement being made about the quality of research, but certainly some topics are very taboo for research.

Here's an example of how pathological it's gotten, not even an issue of research, and something that shouldn't even be controversial:
https://campusreform.org/?ID=15580
Having visited China, I can testify that it sounds strange to an American ear to hear the common and repeated use of the word "nega". If you're going to be dealing with people speaking Chinese, you're going to hear it. That's the reality. But it's totally innocuous. It doesn't mean anything, it's not a slur, and the similarity to an English slur is purely coincidental. But if you can't even talk about that Chinese word in a class about the Chinese language, well, your academic freedom is gone.

 

[Emily's Cat]

In my case I had to sign a court order stating I am the gender I say I am when I got my name and gender changed, I figured there would be some penalty for lying about that in my case and therefore others.

A woman is anybody who states they are a woman and have at least begun the steps to legally change their gender (it can take a while.) There are people who fit elsewhere on the gender spectrum that are not strictly male or female and for them, I say whatever best fits their presentation.

This seems to imply that you're a woman because you say you're a woman. nothing else is needed. You add the "taken some steps toward changing legally"... but this is also a case where the legal process consists of claiming that you're a woman.

Are there any other requirements, legally? Or is it genuinely just declaring that you're a woman?

If it's the latter... consider a parallel argument: The Bible is the Word of God because the Bible says it's the Word of God.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think it’s synonymous with sex for 99% of people. I mean my gender is my sex and I think it’s that way for everyone who isn’t disordered or w/e the word for feeling like your gender isn’t aligning with your sex is (I’m tired and I forget). But yeah I’m with you — we live in a society that gives people a wide birth to behave however they want as long as it harms no one plus the privileges thing.

Being trans is not considered a disorder like being gay isn't considered a disorder.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I believe Jessica Yaniv did the necessary legal steps too. Should Yaniv be allowed to force women to wax her lady testicles or lose their business?

... Or sue gynecologists for discrimination when they refuse to give her an appointment for a screening of an organ she doesn't possess?

 

[ponderingturtle]

... Or sue gynecologists for discrimination when they refuse to give her an appointment for a screening of an organ she doesn't possess?

They do discriminate rather heavily against trans men.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I believe Jessica Yaniv did the necessary legal steps too. Should Yaniv be allowed to force women to wax her lady testicles or lose their business?

... Or sue gynecologists for discrimination when they refuse to give her an appointment for a screening of an organ she doesn't possess?

Yaniv lost her case. Her absurd campaign was unsuccessful despite Canada codifying trans acceptance into their civil rights law. Very strange to offer this as a slippery slope scenario when we know such a case was unsuccessful.

Nutpicking some unsuccessful crank and offering it as an example of what might happen is pretty clear bad faith.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yaniv lost her case. Her absurd campaign was unsuccessful despite Canada codifying trans acceptance into their civil rights law. Very strange to offer this as a slippery slope scenario when we know such a case was unsuccessful.

You missed the point, which wasn't about what the law is or about any slippery slope, but about what Boudicca90 thinks the standard should be. It was an illustration of the point that no, in fact, transpeople should not always be treated how they want to be treated. There should be exceptions to that. The fact that the law recognizes some exceptions doesn't undermine that point.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Women aren't giving up anything in the first place, the table is big enough for all of us.

Holy cow. Male people have three extra large pizzas. Female people, after years of clawing and fighting and yelling at the top of our lungs (and usually being ignored) have just managed to scrape together a small pizza.

But we're expected to share that pizza, divvy it up into even smaller bits, so that some male people can have some of it.

Why on earth do you think we're not giving anything up?

You want to open up scholarships and grants for females in STEM, so that they include some males who claim to be women. That reduces the amount of scholarships available for females, and diverts them to males - who already have access to lots of support for STEM fields.

You want people with penises to have access to areas that are intended to be safe spaces for females, spaces where penises are considered socially unacceptable... and you think women aren't giving up anything?

You haven't had to deal with any of the sexism and gender bias in the world. You haven't been subjected to the objectification, the dismissal of our views, the lack of *&^%$$## bodily autonomy that women are faced with... but you want to reap the rewards of the victories we've just barely managed to eek out... and you think women aren't giving up anything?

I'll happily call you whatever pronoun you prefer, and you can use my toilet if you want. But this pretense, this arrogant assumption that your feeling of personal well-being is more important than the rights and the safety and the strides toward equality that women are *still* trying to make happen is insulting.

It shows a remarkable lack of understanding about being a woman.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Women have been putting up with male privilege for millennia and I can see they feel this is just another round in that battle

Very much this.