Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

It seems like you view gender as something society puts on you rather than something that is inherent to a person. I developed the same way socially despite societal pressure to conform to "male" traits and expectations.

I see gender as who you are, not what society tells you you are. There are a lot of biologically-female aspects of life that I missed out on, having lived the first 30 years of my life as a man. But that doesn't mean I WAS a man during that time.

Gender roles are something that society puts on us. They influence our brains because brains are very plastic. A fair amount of gendered behavior is socially inculcated, not a result of biology. Some behaviors are biologically influenced - testosterone and estrogen both have incontrovertible effects on emotional responses, as well as aggression.

Here's my short run down of terms:
Sex is what your body is (there are some very few that are unclear, thus intersex*)
Gender is what other people assume your sex to be, based on a combination of physical phenotype and behavioral cues (including clothing, makeup etc.)
Gender Identity is what you want other people to perceive your gender to be (and thus, to assume your sex to be)
Gender Roles are the behavioral norms that society defines based on gender
Gender Expression are the things you do in order to align with society's expectations of gender, predominantly through clothing and behavior

And for TERFs, i'm talking people who try to couch their hatred to us in their brand of outdated feminism. They are gender essentialists who will never see us as the gender we are due to their own sexism. They use their hatred and mistrust of men and project it onto us women, because we are all the same to them.

A lot of people who get labeled as TERFs really don't fit that definition.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't know, I assumed trash talking was common in MMA like in boxing and other contact sports. So I don't know if they have or haven't, just that I would expect it.

Even in other contact sports, that kind of sentiment isn't generally part of "trash talking".

Most trash talking occurs prior to the event, and is of the style "I'm going to knock him into next Tuesday" or other more colorful bloviation. Some trash talk might happen after an event falling into "He got lucky he's really just a wimp" justifications from losers or "He went down like a feather" from sore winners. In MOST contact sports, the winners are expected and encouraged to be gracious.

Actually expressing genuine glee and happiness at having caused a serious injury to a fellow player is NOT trash talk.

I might grant an exception for professional wrestling... which is much more theater than sport, and where the heel is expected to be the bad guy. The heel plays for the boos, not the yays.

 

[Boudicca90]

Gender roles are something that society puts on us. They influence our brains because brains are very plastic. A fair amount of gendered behavior is socially inculcated, not a result of biology. Some behaviors are biologically influenced - testosterone and estrogen both have incontrovertible effects on emotional responses, as well as aggression.

Here's my short run down of terms:
Sex is what your body is (there are some very few that are unclear, thus intersex*)
Gender is what other people assume your sex to be, based on a combination of physical phenotype and behavioral cues (including clothing, makeup etc.)
Gender Identity is what you want other people to perceive your gender to be (and thus, to assume your sex to be)
Gender Roles are the behavioral norms that society defines based on gender
Gender Expression are the things you do in order to align with society's expectations of gender, predominantly through clothing and behavior

I would amend this as sex is what your chromosomes are, not primary sex characteristics and that gender identity IS your gender. Otherwise I agree.

A lot of people who get labeled as TERFs really don't fit that definition.

I don't like it when people use TERF for men for example, since they hate us because they see us as a threat to their masculinity and heterosexuality. But many female transphobes are TERFs, and there are a couple who post on this topic, or at least used to.

 

[theprestige]

I don't know, I assumed trash talking was common in MMA like in boxing and other contact sports. So I don't know if they have or haven't, just that I would expect it.

Do you see a lot of celebrating of opponent's physical injuries in boxing and other contact sports?

 

[Boudicca90]

Even in other contact sports, that kind of sentiment isn't generally part of "trash talking".

Most trash talking occurs prior to the event, and is of the style "I'm going to knock him into next Tuesday" or other more colorful bloviation. Some trash talk might happen after an event falling into "He got lucky he's really just a wimp" justifications from losers or "He went down like a feather" from sore winners. In MOST contact sports, the winners are expected and encouraged to be gracious.

Actually expressing genuine glee and happiness at having caused a serious injury to a fellow player is NOT trash talk.

I might grant an exception for professional wrestling... which is much more theater than sport, and where the heel is expected to be the bad guy. The heel plays for the boos, not the yays.

My best friend is a cisgender woman and she has said worse than that MMA fighter, and is more aggressive than many men, yet she is still a woman. It gets to the point where sometimes she goes too far even. She frequently points out how much more feminine I am than her, but it doesn't make her any less of a woman, and doesn't make me any more of a woman. She was a tomboy when she was a kid and now she is a mom and wife, but she still has that masculinity in her.

 

[d4m10n]

It seems like you view gender as something society puts on you rather than something that is inherent to a person.

The fact that human males and human females are subjected to differing (i.e. "gendered") social expectations isn't a matter of personal view, it is an observable fact about countless distinct human societies. If you want to say that "gender" is something other than these expectations, that is fine with me, but don't be denialist about how human societies actually work.

 

[Manger Douse]

My best friend is a cisgender woman and she has said worse than that MMA fighter, and is more aggressive than many men, yet she is still a woman. It gets to the point where sometimes she goes too far even. She frequently points out how much more feminine I am than her, but it doesn't make her any less of a woman, and doesn't make me any more of a woman. She was a tomboy when she was a kid and now she is a mom and wife, but she still has that masculinity in her.

Does she physically dominate most women the way most men do though? Does she commit violence and sexual assault at the same rate as men do? Do you understand what the patriarchy is?

I don't like it when people use TERF for men for example, since they hate us because they see us as a threat to their masculinity and heterosexuality.

Do you have a source for this claim please?

 

[theprestige]

My best friend is a cisgender woman and she has said worse than that MMA fighter, and is more aggressive than many men, yet she is still a woman. It gets to the point where sometimes she goes too far even. She frequently points out how much more feminine I am than her, but it doesn't make her any less of a woman, and doesn't make me any more of a woman. She was a tomboy when she was a kid and now she is a mom and wife, but she still has that masculinity in her.

You seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the complaint. We're not condemning Fallon Fox for saying unwomanly things. We're condemning Fallon Fox for saying really horrible things that even athletes in combat sports don't usually say. Horrible, misogynistic things. It's really weird that you're excusing it as "trash talk" - especially since you seem to have no idea what kinds of values sporting communities and competitive athletes actually promote.

It's even weirder that you're close friends with someone who says even worse stuff about people. Please tell me you're only still in her life because you're hoping to leverage the relationship to get her into some kind of therapy.

 

[p0lka]

So. what is the extremist position that is opposite yours, because I can't see anyone here espousing extremism on the "anti-trans" side?

You never replied to my original reply to your post, so I feel I should make my position clear.
In my opinion, trans women are not female and trans men are not male.
But if they want to be treated as such then i'm perfectly fine with that.

I guess my position is in the middle of the two extremes.

 

[Meadmaker]

I don't like it when people use TERF for men for example,

I know I have been amused at occasionally being labeled a TERF. I don't think I'm much of a feminist, certainly no more of a feminist, and possibly less of one, than the default societal position these days. I'm pretty sure I'm not a radical feminist.

TERF is used by some people as just a generic insult that means the same as the modern "transphobe", except that it sounds more edgy and insulting in some people's minds, and since they want to be insulting, they use it that way. I think it should be reserved for actual radical feminists.

But then again, "feminist" is one of those words that doesn't have much meaning either, to so many people using the term. I'm not sure, for example, what sort of political position would be "feminist" today, as opposed to just individualist. (i.e. "It's ok for women to be doctors." used to be a feminist position. Now, believing the opposite is just a "What the hell is wrong with you?" position.)

since they hate us because they see us as a threat to their masculinity and heterosexuality.

Oh wait. I thought we were going in the same direction for a little bit, but you lost me there. I don't see any transpeople as a threat to either my masculinity or my heterosexuality. In fact, i don't even see how that makes much sense. I'm a guy who is generally guyish, and I like girls. In other words I'm masculine (at least somewhat, if there's a scale) and heterosexual. Someone else's characteristics don't change that, so I'm not seeing the connection, much less the threat.

I think you are putting thoughts into other people's heads.

And I personally don't hate you or all transgenders, although I do think it's fair to say that there are people who do hate transgenders. Not everyone who holds my opinions hates transgenders.

 

[Meadmaker]

You never replied to my original reply to your post, so I feel I should make my position clear.
In my opinion, trans women are not female and trans men are not male.
But if they want to be treated as such then i'm perfectly fine with that.

I guess my position is in the middle of the two extremes.

Ok. Sounds good. Must have gotten lost in the shuffle.

We agree on that part, then.

ETA: Ok, just read Prestige's reply. Yes "treated as such" could be extreme if you mean for all purposes in all cases". I believe they should be treated as such, with some pretty significant limitations.

 

[Meadmaker]

You never replied to my original reply to your post, so I feel I should make my position clear.
In my opinion, trans women are not female and trans men are not male.
But if they want to be treated as such then i'm perfectly fine with that.

I guess my position is in the middle of the two extremes.

I went back and checked out the posts. There were a couple of different threads of conversation going on, and I didn't respond to all of them, but the general theme seemed to be whether a unisex facility would work and who would be satsfied. I'm assuming a "unisex" facilty means private spaces for everyone for things that require changing clothes, within some sort of space shared by males and females. (One of my earlier replies reflected my understanding at that moment that what was being discusses is that men and women wander about naked in front of each other. On further review, I don't think that was the intention, so my post wasn't very relevant.)

My opinion is that it's complicated. It would certainly satisfy privacy concerns, and in that respect, everyone ought to be happy, although there is a subset of people who would not be happy about it for reasons Rolfe pointed out, i.e that the important thing to them is that they want to assert their womanhood, and they can't do that by using a unisex facility. My opinion is that that subset represents a very small number of people whose concerns can frankly be ignored without upsetting me.

There is another subset of people that have come up before that might not be happy about it, which is women who want a space that is somewhat social, but free of male influence. I have some sympathy for that group, but I don't think it's an overriding concern. I guess in making a decision about that, it's best to ask them and see both how many of them there are, and how important it is. Would they be willing to give up that female-only socialization space in order to achieve other goals?

After that it's safety, convenience, comfort, and cost. If the architects can come up with a way that is truly private, so that safety is not really an issue, doesn't bust the construction budget, and actually facilitates changing into a swimsuit, I think most people would be ok with it, and only the extremists unhappy.

 

[theprestige]

What I expected from our new participant: thoughtful insights about the transsexual experience.

What I got: the same bigotry this thread already has too much of.

Of which this thread already has too much.

 

[JihadJane]

The point is that having the reaction "Well, duh. What did you expect?" just shows that whatever we do won't be good enough for some people. And it shouldn't be like that since it still hasn't been shown that there are any kind of widespread issues, just some sore losers in a lot of cases. It's like how I try to hold back my anger at certain things around other women because i'm afraid that they will be like "Of course she got mad, what do you expect?" (with the implication that because I was once a man that I am still a man and act with aggression.)

And I would argue more transgender participation in sports is a good thing as it fosters more inclusivity and is important for LGBTQ+ people to have that representation. I may not care about sports, but I do realize it does matter to a lot of people.

Blithely dismissing concerned girls (who may have lost their scholarships) as "sore losers" indicates an offensive, narcissistic attitude: That's it's OK to use women to validate our gender identities, no matter the impact it has on women. Why? Because "inclusivity" supposedly trumps (supplants) women's sex-based rights and protections. How, in a sane world, is making girls compete against boys in athletics fair in any way?

"it still hasn't been shown that there are any kind of widespread issues", say the entitled ones.

 

[theprestige]

You never replied to my original reply to your post, so I feel I should make my position clear.
In my opinion, trans women are not female and trans men are not male.
But if they want to be treated as such then i'm perfectly fine with that.

I guess my position is in the middle of the two extremes.

I don't see how that answers anything at all. "Treated as such" means different things in different contexts. If you say "treated as such" full stop, you're not anywhere near the middle. You're at one extreme.

 

[Boudicca90]

You seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the complaint. We're not condemning Fallon Fox for saying unwomanly things. We're condemning Fallon Fox for saying really horrible things that even athletes in combat sports don't usually say. Horrible, misogynistic things. It's really weird that you're excusing it as "trash talk" - especially since you seem to have no idea what kinds of values sporting communities and competitive athletes actually promote.

It's even weirder that you're close friends with someone who says even worse stuff about people. Please tell me you're only still in her life because you're hoping to leverage the relationship to get her into some kind of therapy.

I don't see how it's misogynistic in any way, or even "horrible". I think all of this is really overblown.

And my friend is one of the most caring and empathetic people I know, we've been really close for over 20 years now. She just happens to have some anger issues, she is perfectly sane and I don't appreciate you belittling her, so just knock that **** off now.

 

[lionking]

I don't see how it's misogynistic in any way, or even "horrible". I think all of this is really overblown.

And my friend is one of the most caring and empathetic people I know, we've been really close for over 20 years now. She just happens to have some anger issues, she is perfectly sane and I don't appreciate you belittling her, so just knock that **** off now.

Oh cut it out. People who are not members here are open to criticism, even disdain. Have a look at the politics section to see industrial scale belittlement of non- members.

 

[Boudicca90]

I went back and checked out the posts. There were a couple of different threads of conversation going on, and I didn't respond to all of them, but the general theme seemed to be whether a unisex facility would work and who would be satsfied. I'm assuming a "unisex" facilty means private spaces for everyone for things that require changing clothes, within some sort of space shared by males and females. (One of my earlier replies reflected my understanding at that moment that what was being discusses is that men and women wander about naked in front of each other. On further review, I don't think that was the intention, so my post wasn't very relevant.)

My opinion is that it's complicated. It would certainly satisfy privacy concerns, and in that respect, everyone ought to be happy, although there is a subset of people who would not be happy about it for reasons Rolfe pointed out, i.e that the important thing to them is that they want to assert their womanhood, and they can't do that by using a unisex facility. My opinion is that that subset represents a very small number of people whose concerns can frankly be ignored without upsetting me.

There is another subset of people that have come up before that might not be happy about it, which is women who want a space that is somewhat social, but free of male influence. I have some sympathy for that group, but I don't think it's an overriding concern. I guess in making a decision about that, it's best to ask them and see both how many of them there are, and how important it is. Would they be willing to give up that female-only socialization space in order to achieve other goals?

After that it's safety, convenience, comfort, and cost. If the architects can come up with a way that is truly private, so that safety is not really an issue, doesn't bust the construction budget, and actually facilitates changing into a swimsuit, I think most people would be ok with it, and only the extremists unhappy.

I fully support unisex/inclusive restrooms and such - for non-binary, genderqueer, and everybody else who doesn't easily fit into a gender binary. But it would be discrimination to force us to use it, because we are women, period. But we are just a very small number of people, so as you say, our concerns can be ignored without upsetting you. Clearly it's okay to discriminate against people if their numbers are too small to effectively fight back against it.

And as far as men, i'm talking about transphobic men, whos transphobia stems from those issues and are a threat to me and my safety.

 

[p0lka]

I don't see how that answers anything at all. "Treated as such" means different things in different contexts. If you say "treated as such" full stop, you're not anywhere near the middle. You're at one extreme.

I just wanted to make my position clear, some replies were assuming I was on one particular side or the other, i'm not.

If you are putting my position at a third extreme, I don't get it unless the bell curve is a pair of tits curve and I'm at the cleavage?

 

[Manger Douse]

because we are women, period

No