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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

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Maybe slander wasn't the right word, and I wasn't accusing you of anything, just Ziggurat. Trying to use a man that tried to misuse the system to his advantage (and hopefully he is prosecuted, since you have to sign a legal document stating you are the gender you say you are) to smear transpeople in general as dishonest or descriptive is something I see a lot from transphobes.

I didn't smear anyone, and certainly not transpeople in general. I explicitly told you the point of my post, and you're still pretending it meant something completely different than it actually meant.

And that person won't be prosecuted, because they didn't break the law. The legal standard isn't what you apparently think it is. You want to blame me for pointing that out, rather than recognize what the legal standard actually is. You are, in short, trying to shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. That isn't productive.
 
And the fact that you feel my very presence is stifling debate is absurd. Unless it's because you want to talk crap about us behind our backs and feel you can't be as open now.

You’re new to the thread. I was saying that it seems like some posters feel like, only women who feel trans women are overreaching, have a reasonable place in the conversation.

As in, “I’m wondering who is allowed to talk if none of these groups are allowed to talk.”
 
What competitive sports is really about is weakening your body until you're within some inconsistent parameters determined by an algorithm. Forget all that pushing your body to the limit nonsense.
 
If it was really about rewarding hard work we could skip the head to head and just give awards for most hours hard training.
There’s already sports where everyone gets to race together and everyone competes as hard as they can but the winners are based on algorithm type handicaps because they’re using different equipment.
 
What competitive sports is really about is weakening your body until you're within some inconsistent parameters determined by an algorithm. Forget all that pushing your body to the limit nonsense.

My hypothesis is that for trans activists, competitive sports is mostly about a gender-segregated social space that transsexual need to be allowed into, upholding their right to affirm their gender identity. Questions of athleticism and sporting competition are secondary at best. It doesn't matter if it's bad for women's sports. It only matters if it's good for transsexual rights.
 
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There’s already sports where everyone gets to race together and everyone competes as hard as they can but the winners are based on algorithm type handicaps because they’re using different equipment.

Irrelevant. Women categories exist in order to make it possible for women to compete professionally at all. The category was never about gender, and there is nothing inherently female about it. It's about creating a competitive environment for people with a similar natural biology. Trying to accomodate people with a different natural biology in the category by artificially crippling their body is insane.

Transwomen should compete in men's sports instead of trying to find just the right amount of amputated fingers or limbs to be on a level playing field with cis-women.
 
The point is that having the reaction "Well, duh. What did you expect?" just shows that whatever we do won't be good enough for some people.

I don't think it shows that at all. It shows an expectation that a mediocre or better man can beat the very best women in athletic competitions, so when it happens no one ought to be surprised. When women beat men, people are impressed, so if a transwoman really wants to impress people, to be "good enough", she should compete against men.

And it shouldn't be like that since it still hasn't been shown that there are any kind of widespread issues, just some sore losers in a lot of cases.
I'm not really seeing it that way. The New England track girl who got a bronze medal (there were two transgirls racing her) didn't strike me as "sore loser" when I read her comments afterwards. The statement I heard from her basically said that all anyone can do is do their own best and get their best time. Doesn't sound like a sore loser to me.

One girl who would have qualified for the championship event had she not had to compete against the transgirls did sue the school district, but I just don't see that as being a sore loser. I got the feeling that she had worked hard to achieve a goal, and who got that goal taken away from her because she had to compete against two people who had such a strong natural advantage that it would be simply impossible to win.



And I would argue more transgender participation in sports is a good thing as it fosters more inclusivity and is important for LGBTQ+ people to have that representation. I may not care about sports, but I do realize it does matter to a lot of people.

I think you would find that your lack of concern for sports is found very commonly among people who advocate for trans participation in women's soorts.
 
You’re new to the thread. I was saying that it seems like some posters feel like, only women who feel trans women are overreaching, have a reasonable place in the conversation.

As in, “I’m wondering who is allowed to talk if none of these groups are allowed to talk.”

Ah ok. I see what you are saying, sorry I got defensive.

But saying "Women who are rolling over for the trans lobby" dismisses the views of a lot of our allies among cisgender people. They have empathy for us so they can see things from our side and accept us. It's the TERFs that come in and poison them against us with their hate and bigotry that are the real problem.
 
Feel free to post a quote. Rolfe's vague reference made it seem like a comment about the injured competitor. I have no interest in looking it up, as I'm not making the case that this woman is some unhinged, dangerous woman beater.

Let me get this straight... you have no idea what Fallon Fox said, but you defend her reflexively, simply because she is trans? Is that what's going on here?
 
Here you go (took me about 1 min to find it). The quote is from a tweet:

"For the record, I knocked two out. One woman's skull was fractured, the other not. And just so you know, I enjoyed it. See, I love smacking up TEFS (sic) in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It's bliss!"


https://www.sickchirpse.com/fallon-fox-jk-rowling-enjoy-fracture-woman-skull/

Also, in response to a fight she wasn't even in...

“Just so everybody knows. Watching @RondaRousey getting her face cracked did bring a HUGE smile to my face.”
 
Also, in response to a fight she wasn't even in...

“Just so everybody knows. Watching @RondaRousey getting her face cracked did bring a HUGE smile to my face.”

Like SuburbanTurkey pointed out, she is an MMA fighter (a violent contact sport), so I would expect comments like what she said. This is what I said before about how we can't show any kind of aggression or else we will be accused of being a man. If a cisgender woman said it, i'm sure it would be seen as fine.
 
You’re new to the thread. I was saying that it seems like some posters feel like, only women who feel trans women are overreaching, have a reasonable place in the conversation.

As in, “I’m wondering who is allowed to talk if none of these groups are allowed to talk.”

In my opinion, everyone should be allowed to talk.

Although, I also get kind of irritated at men telling me that my perspective doesn't matter and calling me names for disagreeing with them.
 
Like SuburbanTurkey pointed out, she is an MMA fighter (a violent contact sport), so I would expect comments like what she said. This is what I said before about how we can't show any kind of aggression or else we will be accused of being a man. If a cisgender woman said it, i'm sure it would be seen as fine.

Have they though?
 
Like SuburbanTurkey pointed out, she is an MMA fighter (a violent contact sport), so I would expect comments like what she said. This is what I said before about how we can't show any kind of aggression or else we will be accused of being a man. If a cisgender woman said it, i'm sure it would be seen as fine.

Do you see a lot of female MMA competitors talking like that? Openly celebrating physical injuries suffered by their opponents - because of their positions on social issues, no less? Have you ever seen Rhonda Rousey talk about anyone, the way Fallon talked about her?
 
Like SuburbanTurkey pointed out, she is an MMA fighter (a violent contact sport), so I would expect comments like what she said. This is what I said before about how we can't show any kind of aggression or else we will be accused of being a man. If a cisgender woman said it, i'm sure it would be seen as fine.

Actually, you'd be surprised. Aggression in women, outside of a very, very few instances, is generally frowned upon by society. Where a man is dominant, a woman is domineering. Where a man is decisive, a woman is pushy. Where a man is confident, a woman is arrogant. Where a man is in control, a woman is controlling.

The exact same behavior coming from a woman is not viewed as a positive thing. That's a significant element of gender bias that I'd like to see lifted.

Women are socialized and conditioned to be compassionate, empathetic, more focused on making people feel comfortable and happy than in standing up for their own views and voicing their opinions. They're taught (albeit subconsciously) to appear happy, regardless of how they actually feel, and to prioritize the desires of other people over their own needs. Women are supposed to be conciliatory care-givers.

When I talk about the lived experience of being a woman, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's the social emphasis and expectation of behavior that is attributed to women... and which is an active barrier in career progression across the board, especially in politics and executive positions.

None of the other female MMA fighters say such things about their opponents. They do NOT celebrate the injuries that they've caused other women. They certainly don't describe it as bliss. Even most of the male MMA fighters don't do that.
 
Actually, you'd be surprised. Aggression in women, outside of a very, very few instances, is generally frowned upon by society. Where a man is dominant, a woman is domineering. Where a man is decisive, a woman is pushy. Where a man is confident, a woman is arrogant. Where a man is in control, a woman is controlling.

The exact same behavior coming from a woman is not viewed as a positive thing. That's a significant element of gender bias that I'd like to see lifted.

Women are socialized and conditioned to be compassionate, empathetic, more focused on making people feel comfortable and happy than in standing up for their own views and voicing their opinions. They're taught (albeit subconsciously) to appear happy, regardless of how they actually feel, and to prioritize the desires of other people over their own needs. Women are supposed to be conciliatory care-givers.

When I talk about the lived experience of being a woman, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's the social emphasis and expectation of behavior that is attributed to women... and which is an active barrier in career progression across the board, especially in politics and executive positions.

None of the other female MMA fighters say such things about their opponents. They do NOT celebrate the injuries that they've caused other women. They certainly don't describe it as bliss. Even most of the male MMA fighters don't do that.

It seems like you view gender as something society puts on you rather than something that is inherent to a person. I developed the same way socially despite societal pressure to conform to "male" traits and expectations.

I see gender as who you are, not what society tells you you are. There are a lot of biologically-female aspects of life that I missed out on, having lived the first 30 years of my life as a man. But that doesn't mean I WAS a man during that time.

And for TERFs, i'm talking people who try to couch their hatred to us in their brand of outdated feminism. They are gender essentialists who will never see us as the gender we are due to their own sexism. They use their hatred and mistrust of men and project it onto us women, because we are all the same to them.
 
Do you see a lot of female MMA competitors talking like that? Openly celebrating physical injuries suffered by their opponents - because of their positions on social issues, no less? Have you ever seen Rhonda Rousey talk about anyone, the way Fallon talked about her?

I don't know, I assumed trash talking was common in MMA like in boxing and other contact sports. So I don't know if they have or haven't, just that I would expect it.
 
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