Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

Certainly it's an evolving situation in public opinion.

I did some google searching to see what I could find and what I found was mostly a reluctance to ask blunt questions. So, when asked if people supported transgender rights, surveys found that most people did. No one ever wants to say, "I am against rights." As with so many other things, the way the question is worded influences the answer. A lot of polls were split nearly evenly on bathroom questions, but I didn't see any poll that asked specifically about locker rooms or changing rooms.

If you could convince me that only a small minority of women were concerned about this sort of thing, that would probably change my attitude. Until then, I'll be supportive of the privacy rights of women and girls who do not want to be seen disrobed by male bodied individuals.

There is definitely some nuance. Here's a poll from just over a month ago, asked of Britons. If you look through the chart, you can see some clear impacts of nuance.

For example... The vast majority of people think that people should be allowed to "self-identify". But the vast majority also disagree with making it easier to legally change one's gender, or that transgender people should be allowed to legally change their gender without buy-off from a doctor and without having lived as the target gender for a good period of time. That pretty much boils down to "People can call themselves whatever they like and I'll go along with it, but if they want the legal resources of the gender they identify as they have to be medically supported and show commitment to it - lip service and a claim alone isn't sufficient."

As another example, there's pretty good agreement that transgender people should be allowed to use the changing rooms and toilets of the gender they identify as... but that support erodes pretty quickly if the transgender person in question has not had gender reassignment surgery.

Where does the British public stand on transgender rights?

 

[p0lka]

I say exposed, because that seem to fit the situation more effectively. It's hard to consider it an "accidental" flash, when the adult person is sitting, legs spread, watching the girls. And that is what the girls in question reported as the situation.

The transwoman in question didn't even deny it, really. Her entire argument is that she's a woman, so she has a right to be there and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

In that case is the concern about intent?

If the person sitting, legs spread, watching the girls had a vagina, would it be equally concerning to you?

For me, yes, as there is some weird intentions there, dodgy people come in all forms and I would tell them to cover up or get out.

Not because anyone is seeing anyone else's genitals, but because some people are acting dodgy in that situation, regardless of what bits they have.
I think there's a bit of conflating two different things here.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

In that case is the concern about intent?

If the person sitting, legs spread, watching the girls had a vagina, would it be equally concerning to you?

For me, yes, as there is some weird intentions there, dodgy people come in all forms and I would tell them to cover up or get out.

Not because anyone is seeing anyone else's genitals, but because some people are acting dodgy in that situation, regardless of what bits they have.

Colleen Francis was sitting in a sauna with her cis friend chatting as any other normal person might. There is no shred of evidence she was loitering or leering at undressed girls in the locker room.

The claims that she was leering or otherwise perving on these girls seems to be total speculation by Christian advocacy groups and other trans bigots.

 

[Meadmaker]

https://www.transadvocate.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/EvergreenPoliceReport.pdf

I'm not sure you picked the source most likely to have objective coverage.

It would be interesting to catch up with the girls on that swim team and see what they say today. They would be in their late twenties by now. Do they look back on that time when they went to the small locker room in order to be away from Ms. Francis as a time when they were ignorant or naive, or do they see it as a formative experience and want to try to protect today's girls from a similar experience?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm not sure you picked the source most likely to have objective coverage.

It would be interesting to catch up with the girls on that swim team and see what they say today. They would be in their late twenties by now. Do they look back on that time when they went to the small locker room in order to be away from Ms. Francis as a time when they were ignorant or naive, or do they see it as a formative experience and want to try to protect today's girls from a similar experience?

It's a primary source, a pdf of the police report. I can link to the same PDF from the anti-gay ADF if that's more your speed.

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/EvergreenPoliceReport.pdf

How come all these TERFs end up siding with Christian bigots? What a crazy coincidence, huh?

Founded by some 30 leaders of the Christian Right, the Alliance Defending Freedom is a legal advocacy and training group that has:

Supported the recriminalization of sexual acts between consenting LGBTQ adults in the U.S. and criminalization abroad
Defended state-sanctioned sterilization of trans people abroad
Contended that LGBTQ people are more likely to engage in pedophilia
Claimed that a “homosexual agenda” will destroy Christianity and society

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/alliance-defending-freedom

 

[p0lka]

Colleen Francis was sitting in a sauna with her cis friend chatting as any other normal person might. There is no shred of evidence she was loitering or leering at undressed girls in the locker room.

The claims that she was leering or otherwise perving on these girls seems to be total speculation by Christian advocacy groups and other trans bigots.

Just read your post above, thx. Not exactly accurate then.

Nevertheless, I'm still interested in the answer to my post below.

In that case is the concern about intent?

If the person sitting, legs spread, watching the girls had a vagina, would it be equally concerning to you?

For me, yes, as there is some weird intentions there, dodgy people come in all forms and I would tell them to cover up or get out.

Not because anyone is seeing anyone else's genitals, but because some people are acting dodgy in that situation, regardless of what bits they have.
I think there's a bit of conflating two different things here.

 

[p0lka]

Where does the British public stand on transgender rights?

offtopic
we are the same people that voted for brexit, I wouldn't trust us with anything!

 

[p0lka]

A few questions here... What ages of kids are you talking about? And do you think that those kids being escorted by their parents might be a factor in it being so acceptable? Would it be just as acceptable if the children were not under the supervision of adults while their was a stranger exposing themselves and watching the young ladies undress?

Do you think upbringing might be a factor in nudity not being acceptable?

After all, the default position of bringing up kids in my experience is having to teach them to wear clothes, they generally don't want to?
the itchiness, oh my god the itchiness.

 

[Meadmaker]

As another example, there's pretty good agreement that transgender people should be allowed to use the changing rooms and toilets of the gender they identify as... but that support erodes pretty quickly if the transgender person in question has not had gender reassignment surgery.

I wonder how much skewing there is of survey data just because people answering don't understand the questions. I grew up hearing about "transsexuals". They were people who had undergone reassignment surgery.

I wonder how many people hear the word "transgender", and think it means the same thing as the old "transsexual" term.

This isn't a topic that comes up often in casual conversation, but I know I've cleared up some misunderstandings about that topic over the years.

 

[Emily's Cat]

offtopic
we are the same people that voted for brexit, I wouldn't trust us with anything!

It wasn't off topic. It was pretty spot on for the topic of nuance involved in trans-support.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you think upbringing might be a factor in nudity not being acceptable?

After all, the default position of bringing up kids in my experience is having to teach them to wear clothes, they generally don't want to?
the itchiness, oh my god the itchiness.

Maybe, maybe not. My folks were hippies, and I saw both of my parents naked for a good while as a kid. Up until age 8 or nine, I took baths with my two younger brothers and helped them wash. Nudity by itself isn't a problem. I have no fear of penises qua penises. I am actually quite fond of penises and I find them aesthetically pleasing. I'm quite happy that we're getting more male nudity in film and television than we used to, and I'm tickled every time Jimmy Carr or Rachel Riley draws phalluses on TV. (I'm particularly fond the penis ejaculating numbers).

But even as a middle-aged chubby woman, I'd be uncomfortable to find male genitalia floating around in a single-sex locker room. I'd have been far more uncomfortable with it as a teenager - especially if they were genitalia belonging to someone much older than me.

If it were a unisex changing room, I might still be a bit self-conscious, but it wouldn't make me uncomfortable. It's in the expectation.

 

[p0lka]

It wasn't off topic. It was pretty spot on for the topic of nuance involved in trans-support.

oh sorry, when i typed offtopic I meant what I was about to post was offtopic as it was a brexit whinge from me. sorry for me being confusing.

 

[p0lka]

Maybe, maybe not. My folks were hippies, and I saw both of my parents naked for a good while as a kid. Up until age 8 or nine, I took baths with my two younger brothers and helped them wash. Nudity by itself isn't a problem. I have no fear of penises qua penises. I am actually quite fond of penises and I find them aesthetically pleasing. I'm quite happy that we're getting more male nudity in film and television than we used to, and I'm tickled every time Jimmy Carr or Rachel Riley draws phalluses on TV. (I'm particularly fond the penis ejaculating numbers).

But even as a middle-aged chubby woman, I'd be uncomfortable to find male genitalia floating around in a single-sex locker room. I'd have been far more uncomfortable with it as a teenager - especially if they were genitalia belonging to someone much older than me.

If it were a unisex changing room, I might still be a bit self-conscious, but it wouldn't make me uncomfortable. It's in the expectation.

By expectation, do you mean intent?
That would be my concern, not genitals.

If not, what do you mean by expectation?

 

[Emily's Cat]

By expectation, do you mean intent?
That would be my concern, not genitals.

If not, what do you mean by expectation?

Not intent. It's the expectation of people using a unisex changing room that they may see nude people of any configuration, and thus it is acceptable. It's the expectation of people using a single-sex changing room that they will only see nude people with the same types of bodies as them, and thus, when they see someone with obviously different genitalia, it is not acceptable.

As a parallel: If I go to a very general music festival celebrating all types of music, I will not be surprised or displeased to hear country music. If, however, I go to a dub-step festival, I'm going to be rather unhappy when the country folks start playing.

 

[p0lka]

Not intent. It's the expectation of people using a unisex changing room that they may see nude people of any configuration, and thus it is acceptable. It's the expectation of people using a single-sex changing room that they will only see nude people with the same types of bodies as them, and thus, when they see someone with obviously different genitalia, it is not acceptable.

As a parallel: If I go to a very general music festival celebrating all types of music, I will not be surprised or displeased to hear country music. If, however, I go to a dub-step festival, I'm going to be rather unhappy when the country folks start playing.

It's the unexpected that is the issue then?

That's an upbringing issue, not everyone cares about nudity.

you should care more about intent, regardless of genitalia.

 

[Meadmaker]

It's the unexpected that is the issue then?

That's an upbringing issue, not everyone cares about nudity.

you should care more about intent, regardless of genitalia.

I think what she was getting at is that intent isn't broadcast. We can't read minds. We don't know intent. What we can do is determine if someone is following expected social norms and living by common standards. If not, that raises a red flag that the person may not be trusted. We don't know someone's intent, but what we do know is that the person is indifferent to what people around him think.

Let's take an extreme case. Suppose I, on a streetcorner, just stripped naked one day. Well, what then? I mean, genitalia aren't scary. I'm not a threat. What is wrong with your upbringing that you get freaked out by a naked guy?

 

[p0lka]

I think what she was getting at is that intent isn't broadcast. We can't read minds. We don't know intent. What we can do is determine if someone is following expected social norms and living by common standards. If not, that raises a red flag that the person may not be trusted. We don't know someone's intent, but what we do know is that the person is indifferent to what people around him think.

If someone is spreading their legs whilst staring at underage girls in the way that was represented then intent is broadcasted, irrespective of which genitalia is present. They're dodgy, complain about them.
It's not a penis vagina thing, it's a dodgy person thing.

Let's take an extreme case. Suppose I, on a streetcorner, just stripped naked one day. Well, what then? I mean, genitalia aren't scary. I'm not a threat. What is wrong with your upbringing that you get freaked out by a naked guy?

Why the assumption that a naked guy would cause me or anyone to freak out?

Exhibiting one's hangups is a good way to show the flaws in ones position.

I think there's too much conflating going on between seeing genitals, and treating seeing 'opposite sex' genitals as a threat, for me.

 

[caveman1917]

It's a primary source, a pdf of the police report. I can link to the same PDF from the anti-gay ADF if that's more your speed.

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/EvergreenPoliceReport.pdf

How come all these TERFs end up siding with Christian bigots? What a crazy coincidence, huh?



https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/alliance-defending-freedom

You are the one that linked to ADF, not any "TERF.". Either show where in this thread a so-called "TERF" has "sided with Christian bigots" or admit that you're just making up random accusations again.

 

[The Atheist]

Let's blur the lines even more - a Scottish woman is about to take legal action to preserve the sperm from her dead trans daughter: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-53889359

In the case of nudist colonies, do you think it would be normal behavior for parents to send their unaccompanied children to the colony without being there themselves?

I wouldn't expect parents to send kids anywhere unaccompanied until they're 16, at which stage it would become their own choice.

 

[zooterkin]

Let's blur the lines even more - a Scottish woman is about to take legal action to preserve the sperm from her dead trans daughter: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-53889359

As the article says, the fact that she's trans is irrelevant in deciding the case, though it does make for confusing headlines. There have been similar cases, with more merit, where a widow is trying to gain access to her dead husband's sperm. I don't think anyone has the right, regardless of gender identity, to expect offspring to be created after their death, especially when there's no-one they were in a relationship with that they were expecting to have a child with.