Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Matthew Best]

No one claims this.

You've not been on the internet long, I take it?

It really doesn't matter what your sentence refers to, it's probably incorrect.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Not really. No. Men and women are different.

To some extent there are comparable issues, but it's not the same, at least for most people. However, there are men who would be affronted by the presence of a female in the men's locker room, so females ought to respect that, but the difference in sex really does matter.

Something that came up in the not too distant past in this thread that I didn't get at first was how very sexist this non-sexist posturing really was. Basically, a lot of men are saying, "I wouldn't be offended by the presence of a female in my locker room, so they shouldn't be offended by the presence of a male in their locker room." It's just completely ignoring what women want. Ask the women. Do they object to a male in their locker room? If they say "Yes", and you say, "Too bad", you are being sexist. You are saying that the concerns of women are unimportant.

ETA: Just to clarify, when you say that you are baffled by the fear of nudity, I'm not going to say that you are wrong, but I am going to say that this fear of nudity, this desire to not be seen naked by the opposite sex is very common among women. There is great debate about whether this is due to culture or due to instinct or (my opinion) a combination of both, but regardless of where it comes from, it is very real. To dismiss it is sexist.

If you have any data saying that a majority of women would object to allowing transwomen into women's spaces, such as locker rooms, I'd love to see it. The popularity of trans-acceptance in certain communities, like Canada which codified trans-acceptance into law, suggests that the trans exclusionists are a minority.

The college public pool is an interesting example of culture clash, where the collegiate culture is much more progressive than the parents of whatever unrelated swim program that was using the college's pool. Seems that the college was very accommodating of their gender hangups by allowing them use of the private locker room for their students. Of course, the parents would have preferred if the trans women was ostracized, rather than having to inconvenience themselves.

I would agree that there is probably a great deal of very strong social stigma that would cause some people to reject trans women in women's spaces, especially locker rooms, but I don't see that as a evidence of anything more than the result of socially enforced gender roles.

Go back 75 years and you'd find plenty of reasonable, thoughtful people that would reject the idea of sharing pools or bathrooms with black people as obviously out of the question, nowadays it's not even a question in the mind of anyone but the most racist among us. A strong gut instinct isn't really evidence of much of anything beyond social conditioning and prevalent norms.

 

[caveman1917]

Depends on how tolerant their culture is toward people rejecting gender roles and how flexible those gender roles in their culture are. A culture with very rigid gender roles may not recognise women who don't fit into the feminine gender role as women, while a culture with very loose gender roles may accept some biological men as women.

This seems to disagree and claim that it is, to the contrary, cultures with more rigid gender roles which categorize a male person who doesn't fit into the masculine gender role as a woman.

Doctors assign gender, not biological sex. People do the former, the Good Lord does the latter.

No, doctors definitely "assign" (aka observe) sex. Doctors "assigning gender" doesn't even make sense.

 

[zooterkin]

According to some activists, self-declared identity is the only factor that determines sex. If you declare you are female, that means your body is female.

No one claims this.

From a medical perspective, the appropriate determinant of sex is gender identity.

Expert declaration in a legal deposition.

 

[Ziggurat]

Doctors assign gender, not biological sex.

You are wrong. We have been over this already. Doctors do not assign gender, they observe sex.

 

[Meadmaker]

If you have any data saying that a majority of women would object to allowing transwomen into women's spaces, such as locker rooms, I'd love to see it. The popularity of trans-acceptance in certain communities, like Canada which codified trans-acceptance into law, suggests that the trans exclusionists are a minority.

The college public pool is an interesting example of culture clash, where the collegiate culture is much more progressive than the parents of whatever unrelated swim program that was using the college's pool. Seems that the college was very accommodating of their gender hangups by allowing them use of the private locker room for their students. Of course, the parents would have preferred if the trans women was ostracized, rather than having to inconvenience themselves.

I would agree that there is probably a great deal of very strong social stigma that would cause some people to reject trans women in women's spaces, especially locker rooms, but I don't see that as a evidence of anything more than the result of socially enforced gender roles.

Go back 75 years and you'd find plenty of reasonable, thoughtful people that would reject the idea of sharing pools or bathrooms with black people as obviously out of the question, nowadays it's not even a question in the mind of anyone but the most racist among us. A strong gut instinct isn't really evidence of much of anything beyond social conditioning and prevalent norms.

Certainly it's an evolving situation in public opinion.

I did some google searching to see what I could find and what I found was mostly a reluctance to ask blunt questions. So, when asked if people supported transgender rights, surveys found that most people did. No one ever wants to say, "I am against rights." As with so many other things, the way the question is worded influences the answer. A lot of polls were split nearly evenly on bathroom questions, but I didn't see any poll that asked specifically about locker rooms or changing rooms.

If you could convince me that only a small minority of women were concerned about this sort of thing, that would probably change my attitude. Until then, I'll be supportive of the privacy rights of women and girls who do not want to be seen disrobed by male bodied individuals.

 

[Earthborn]

You are wrong. We have been over this already. Doctors do not assign gender, they observe sex.

They observe sex, but that is not the only thing they do. They write their observation down too, but doing that they have to make a binary choice between an M or an F. Usually not too complicated a choice to make, but in rare cases still a bit of a value judgement to assign an M or an F to what they observe.

 

[caveman1917]

They observe sex, but that is not the only thing they do. They write their observation down too, but doing that they have to make a binary choice between an M of an F. Usually not too complicated a choice to make, but in rare cases still a bit of a value judgement to assign an M of an F to what they observe.

Even if in rare (very rare) cases a bit of value judgement is required that would be in cases of DSD's. That's not the same as transgenderism, for the vast majority of cases of transgender people their sex was unambiguously observed at birth, no value judgement required.

 

[Earthborn]

That's not the same as transgenderism, for the vast majority of cases of transgender people their sex was unambiguously observed at birth, no value judgement required.

No argument there. Of course it still means that at birth they were assigned an M or an F they no longer identify with.

 

[Ziggurat]

They observe sex, but that is not the only thing they do. They write their observation down too, but doing that they have to make a binary choice between an M or an F. Usually not too complicated a choice to make, but in rare cases still a bit of a value judgement to assign an M or an F to what they observe.

Intersex cases are not only very rare, they are also not what's driving the debate over trans identity. Most trans people are not intersex.

 

[Earthborn]

Intersex cases are not only very rare,

Not as rare as you think.

they are also not what's driving the debate over trans identity.

Never claimed they were. They are however what's driving the "assigned gender at birth" terminology. Many intersex individuals who are genetically male have been assigned "F". Not because that is what they most resembled biologically, but because it is often easier in corrective surgery to remove something than it is to add something.

 

[Lplus]

Certainly it's an evolving situation in public opinion.

I did some google searching to see what I could find and what I found was mostly a reluctance to ask blunt questions. So, when asked if people supported transgender rights, surveys found that most people did. No one ever wants to say, "I am against rights." As with so many other things, the way the question is worded influences the answer. A lot of polls were split nearly evenly on bathroom questions, but I didn't see any poll that asked specifically about locker rooms or changing rooms.

If you could convince me that only a small minority of women were concerned about this sort of thing, that would probably change my attitude. Until then, I'll be supportive of the privacy rights of women and girls who do not want to be seen disrobed by male bodied individuals.

I don't consider this is a subject where "eh, only a few women are scared of being raped so it doesn't matter" is a reasonable position to take.

 

[Earthborn]

… I didn't see any poll that asked specifically about locker rooms or changing rooms.

If you do, I think you'll find that both men and women prefer individual changing stalls over communal changing rooms, and you may also find that the ones designated for women are more likely to already have them.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Kids don't care about genitalia of either kind. Oftentimes (possibly not in all countries, but it's common here in Scandinavia) kids are brought into the opposite gender's locker rooms by parents if for example only one parent is going to the swimming pool that day.

A few questions here... What ages of kids are you talking about? And do you think that those kids being escorted by their parents might be a factor in it being so acceptable? Would it be just as acceptable if the children were not under the supervision of adults while their was a stranger exposing themselves and watching the young ladies undress?

 

[Emily's Cat]

You would be wrong,
I'm a father to 5 females, one transitioned from male. A granddad to 2 females and 1 male.
Your use of the word exposed is dishonest. I'm talking about accidentally flashing, not the predatory stuff some posters, including you, are defaulting to.
I don't think any of my children haven't seen naked adults, and it's perfectly fine. Normal even?

I say exposed, because that seem to fit the situation more effectively. It's hard to consider it an "accidental" flash, when the adult person is sitting, legs spread, watching the girls. And that is what the girls in question reported as the situation.

The transwoman in question didn't even deny it, really. Her entire argument is that she's a woman, so she has a right to be there and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, some might. It would be awfully rare, though.

I've never heard of it happening. That includes transmen. I've never heard of a transman deliberately behaving so that the men sharing a locker room can see "his" vagina.

(And it's annoying that we don't have a word that is not considered vulgar and is anatomically correct, to describe exactly what is seen, but there it is.)

"Pubic mound" would likely work. Realistically, nobody is seeing a vagina unless they're right there in it. Vagina is essentially an internal part. They'd at best see labia majora, but realistically they're seeing pubic hair and a lack of penis and scrotum.

I mean, unless the woman in question is sitting there with her legs spread wide open, in which case labia majora, labia minora, and vaginal opening might be visible.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And, reconsidering my answer, if "adult woman" includes a transman, and said transman wanted to go swimming, I'm not sure how to avoid it. Wear the swimsuit under street clothes so you don't have to change at the pool? Change inside a toilet stall? Not go swimming?

What do transmen do in such a case?

Use the women's changing rooms.

Honestly, I'm all for transmen who haven't surgically transitioned using the ladies rooms. And I'm all for about 70% of transwomen using the ladies room. It would be higher if it weren't for cases like this one or that Jessica person in Canada. Because those people aren't living their own lives - they're pushing themselves into the lives of other people, being intimidating, and taking advantage of good natures.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I imagine there are probably some research on what mixed nudity does to attitudes and lifestyles, given the number of nudist colonies that exist, and most of them take their kids along.

That seems perfectly reasonable. Nudity, in and of itself, isn't a problem. It's the expectation of privacy from the other sex that is the problem here. At a nudist colony, or even in a co-ed changing rooms, it's expected that both sexes will be present. There is explicitly no expectation of privacy from the opposite sex. That's not the case here though - it's a room set aside that has historically been understood to be a safe place for female-bodied people to expect privacy from male-bodied people.

In the case of nudist colonies, do you think it would be normal behavior for parents to send their unaccompanied children to the colony without being there themselves?

 

[Emily's Cat]

No one claims this.

Actually, yes, some people really do.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I say exposed, because that seem to fit the situation more effectively. It's hard to consider it an "accidental" flash, when the adult person is sitting, legs spread, watching the girls. And that is what the girls in question reported as the situation.

The transwoman in question didn't even deny it, really. Her entire argument is that she's a woman, so she has a right to be there and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Would love to see some evidence that this transwoman was doing anything improper. I trust you wouldn't accuse someone of being a sex pervert without a shred of evidence, that might smack of bigotry.

The police report states that Ms. Francis was in the sauna and that the complaining women confronted her there, not in the general locker area. There is not a shred of evidence that she was doing anything beyond sitting in a sauna while trans.

https://www.transadvocate.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/EvergreenPoliceReport.pdf


Funny enough, I do see second hand sources that are describing the matter as you say, but those are people like the ADF, a religious advocacy group that takes explicitly bigoted anti-gay and anti-trans views.

if this source is to be believed, the entire story is practically a hoax. Details missed by breathless reporting by local news, and later less accurate reporting by bigoted advocacy groups, include:

The sauna area was off limits to the two teens.
Unless one specifically tries to see inside the sauna, you can’t view the people inside the sauna.
Colleen Francis AND her cisgender female friend were using the sauna together. They were sitting there talking.
At no point did Francis act to expose herself to children.
At no point was Francis walking around nude in the area where children were.

https://www.transadvocate.com/colleen-francis-and-the-infamous-evergreen-state-college-incident_n_10765.htm