Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Safe-Keeper]

Is there a difference between a deliberately flashed male penis, and a deliberately flashed female penis?

Also this.

 

[p0lka]

The highlighted part resonates with me.

Even further when you consider that it's a much older male person exposing their genitalia to under-age girls.

With that context, I'm pretty sure that if a 45 year old female exposed her naked breasts and pubis to a locker room of unclad underage boys, the parents of those boys would be rightfully concerned about the event as well.

what?

Quite so. That would be very suggestive of predatory behavior, since adult women having sexual relations with underage boys is a thing, for some reason.

What?

surely the issue would be with the people that are deliberately flashing their bits to underage girls?
The intentions of the flasher would be the cause for concern, report them to the police and get them kicked out.

If the flashing is accidental, then I don't see the difference between an accidentally flashed penis, or an accidentally flashed vagina.

 

[p0lka]

Fear of nudity is weird, yes. And conceptually I agree quite strongly that nudity shouldn't, in and of itself, be considered something horrible.

But I'm also assuming, based on your responses here, that you don't have kids? Or at least you don't have female children? Because I'm at a bit of a loss how an adult male exposing their genitalia to children when those children are also naked doesn't at least cause a small amount of concern.

You would be wrong,
I'm a father to 5 females, one transitioned from male. A granddad to 2 females and 1 male.
Your use of the word exposed is dishonest. I'm talking about accidentally flashing, not the predatory stuff some posters, including you, are defaulting to.
I don't think any of my children haven't seen naked adults, and it's perfectly fine. Normal even?

 

[The Atheist]

Fear of nudity is weird, yes. And conceptually I agree quite strongly that nudity shouldn't, in and of itself, be considered something horrible.

Accidental exposure isn't a problem.

My girl was aged 4 when we were confronted by a young man running naked down the street. Turned out his mates had stolen his clothes so he ran home.

She laughed. Didn't turn her queer, or into a nympho, although she did lose her virginity later than even her staunch christian friends.

I don't believe it would be an issue if all changing rooms were open to all genders. Jonathan Swift knew this 300 years ago.

 

[Ziggurat]

What?

An adult woman is not going to accidentally flash a locker room full of underage boys.

 

[Meadmaker]

Capital letters and formatting doesn't make your post more effective.

Kids don't care about genitalia of either kind.

The kids in this case were high school students. I think they care about genitals if they happen to be their own.

The issue that makes Brenna's behavior so bad was explained in Ziggurat's post. Brenna was completely disregarding all social convention, including those of transwomen. The incident occurred about 10 years ago. At that time, one of the standard responses when discussing transwomen in women's locker rooms was that no transwoman would want to be seen. They hide themselves over in the corner and no one ever realizes that they are transwomen.

I never hear that anymore, because of course there are plenty of cases where people do, in fact, make it obvious that they are transwomen, in just the way that Brenna did. Now, everyone skips the part about no one ever noticing that the person is a transwoman, and goes straight to the bigotry language. So if a teenage girl objects to being naked in front of a 45 year old male lesbian, she's a bigot or has some sort of hangup.

 

[Meadmaker]

An adult woman is not going to accidentally flash a locker room full of underage boys.

Well, some might. It would be awfully rare, though.

I've never heard of it happening. That includes transmen. I've never heard of a transman deliberately behaving so that the men sharing a locker room can see "his" vagina.

(And it's annoying that we don't have a word that is not considered vulgar and is anatomically correct, to describe exactly what is seen, but there it is.)

 

[Meadmaker]

Is there a difference between a deliberately flashed male penis, and a deliberately flashed female penis?

Yes. There is no such thing as a female penis.

Is there a difference between a deliberately flashed penis on a transwoman versus a deliberately flashed penis on a cis-man, in the women's locker room?

Well, there is a difference. In fact, I think we would all agree that there is a difference. Is the difference enough to treat them differently under the law, i.e. that we ought to allow one but not the other? That's what the argument is about.


And of course, "deliberately flashed" is such loaded language. When I go swimming, I stand next to a locker. I take off all of my clothes. I put on my swim trunks. During the transition period between steps two and three, my genitals are exposed and anyone looking in my direction can see them. Did I just "deliberately flash" anyone? I deliberately behaved in such a way that my genitals would be exposed. In my case, that exposure is not a goal of the exercise, but a side effect. I have done that all of my life and I can't imagine stopping, unless the places I go swimming put in private changing stalls which I would use, but to be honest I would find it annoying.

 

[p0lka]

An adult woman is not going to accidentally flash a locker room full of underage boys.

Do you understand what 'accidentally' means?

 

[The Atheist]

An adult woman is not going to accidentally flash a locker room full of underage boys.

I don't see why not, assuming we had mixed changing rooms.

My wife's young and fit enough that 99% of straight underage boys would cop a look if they could, and she always puts her foot on a towel on the bench to dry her feet. Standing at the right angle, you can see more flaps than a 747.

 

[Meadmaker]

I don't see why not, assuming we had mixed changing rooms.

My wife's young and fit enough that 99% of straight underage boys would cop a look if they could, and she always puts her foot on a towel on the bench to dry her feet. Standing at the right angle, you can see more flaps than a 747.

And, reconsidering my answer, if "adult woman" includes a transman, and said transman wanted to go swimming, I'm not sure how to avoid it. Wear the swimsuit under street clothes so you don't have to change at the pool? Change inside a toilet stall? Not go swimming?

What do transmen do in such a case?

 

[The Atheist]

What do transmen do in such a case?

Hide.

As I mentioned earlier, trans men are in a lot more danger from men than women are from trans women.

 

[cullennz]

Haven't looked at this thread for a bit.

There are female penises now?

 

[The Atheist]

Haven't looked at this thread for a bit.

There are female penises now?

Yes, and pigs fly, homeopathy works, ESP is real and the earth is flat.

See how easy it is?

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't see why not, assuming we had mixed changing rooms.

We don’t. Nor was that the scenario under consideration.

 

[Elaedith]

Haven't looked at this thread for a bit.

There are female penises now?

According to some activists, self-declared identity is the only factor that determines sex. If you declare you are female, that means your body is female. Terms such as 'there is no such thing as a female penis' or referring to a trans woman who has not surgically transitioned as 'male-bodied' are regarded as hate speech and equivalent to denying the existence of transgender people, which makes one virtually a Nazi.

To support this, it is necessary to insist that no other means of determining sex is valid. Hence the attempts to redefine biological sex as a spectrum, and the use of biological sex to determine whether one is male or female as an ideology rather than science. Of course this is related to postmodernism in general, which sees science as just an ideology anyway.

Having decided that science must say in order to be ideologically correct, this then leads logically to the need to use any means necessary to make researchers and experts conform, which were described in the interview with Dr Debra Soh I linked to before.

I would agree with Rolfe that it is strange to find people endorsing this on a skeptics forum, but nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[The Atheist]

We don’t.

Some places do, you know.

I imagine there are probably some research on what mixed nudity does to attitudes and lifestyles, given the number of nudist colonies that exist, and most of them take their kids along.

Probably not an easy one to search for.

If I ever feel like a visit from the police I'll do a search for "children in nudist camps".

 

[Lplus]

According to some activists, self-declared identity is the only factor that determines sex. If you declare you are female, that means your body is female. Terms such as 'there is no such thing as a female penis' or referring to a trans woman who has not surgically transitioned as 'male-bodied' are regarded as hate speech and equivalent to denying the existence of transgender people, which makes one virtually a Nazi.

To support this, it is necessary to insist that no other means of determining sex is valid. Hence the attempts to redefine biological sex as a spectrum, and the use of biological sex to determine whether one is male or female as an ideology rather than science. Of course this is related to postmodernism in general, which sees science as just an ideology anyway.

Having decided that science must say in order to be ideologically correct, this then leads logically to the need to use any means necessary to make researchers and experts conform, which were described in the interview with Dr Debra Soh I linked to before.

I would agree with Rolfe that it is strange to find people endorsing this on a skeptics forum, but nothing surprises me anymore.

A succinct description.

As to this being a skeptics forum, I think that boat sailed years ago on a wave of left wing emotional irrationality.

 

[Earthborn]

What about females who reject their culture's female gender role but still say they're women?

Depends on how tolerant their culture is toward people rejecting gender roles and how flexible those gender roles in their culture are. A culture with very rigid gender roles may not recognise women who don't fit into the feminine gender role as women, while a culture with very loose gender roles may accept some biological men as women.

What about females whose culture doesn't recognize them as being 'women' for whatever reason, but who say they have a right to be recognized as women?

If they are not recognised as "women" in their culture, they are not "women" in their culture. People from another culture may disagree.

I think most feminists and women's rights activists throughout history would fall into the first category, and wouldn't actually be "women" according to Earthborn.

Don't know about "most" but many feminists and women's rights activists are cis-gender men. Some of those who are not may or may not have been recognised as "women".

Somehow this seems even less thought-through than his claim that doctors assign biological sex at birth.

Doctors assign gender, not biological sex. People do the former, the Good Lord does the latter.

 

[Earthborn]

According to some activists, self-declared identity is the only factor that determines sex gender identity.

Fixed this for you.

If you declare you are female, that means your body is female.

No one claims this.