Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Earthborn]

And if I'm honest, I'm also a bit miffed about a male-bodied person, with a male lived experience, getting Time's "Woman of the Year" award. Female people already don't get nearly enough credit, and having to share that meager spotlight with male people is grating.

I'm not sure when that happened. Do you have any inside knowledge of who is going to be Time's Person of the Year 2020? Or are you refering to Caitlyn Jenner being one of 25 Women of the Year 2015, declared by Glamour Magazine?

 

[Emily's Cat]

The main difference here, (and your ignorance is understandable) is that vaginas are not typically seen in a women's locker room. Women are much more modest..in the USA at least. Even in a sauna.

The occasional older German woman defies the rule, but no one cares because a foreigner gets a pass on these things.
You'll also have to exclude Korean spas, but school swim teams do not go to those places.

I once went to a Korean spa with a friend of mine. I'm not particularly bashful... but that was a lot more exposed than I expected. To be fair though, I also don't think I've every been so clean before. Something about being vigorously scrubbed (with no compassion by the way) by elderly women in public.

 

[p0lka]

I hear this over and over and over again, and for the life of me I cannot figure out what planet I am on when I hear it.

Every single time I use a locker room and take a shower after a workout, I "flash" everyone in the locker room. Everyone can see my stuff. That's why girls aren't allowed in my locker room and, more importantly, I am not allowed in the girls' locker room. That's why we have locker rooms.

The reason he is flashing his stuff to teenage girls, and why he is seeing what they have as well is that he is in a locker room with teenage girls, and people in locker rooms are naked sometimes. And the reason no one can do anything about it is that "he" says he is a "she", and so everything "she" is doing is perfectly normal to be doing in a locker room. The only question is which locker room "he/she" ought to be in when he's doing it.

ok, I get where you are coming from, but it would be nice to answer the question.

If the flashing is accidental, then I don't see the difference between an accidentally flashed penis, or an accidentally flashed vagina.
Do you think there's a difference?

 

[Meadmaker]

If the flashing is accidental, then I don't see the difference between an accidentally flashed penis, or an accidentally flashed vagina.
Do you think there's a difference?

I'm not absolutely 100% certain that I understand the question, so I will clarify what I think the question is before giving my answer. I think the question is what is the difference between an accidentally flashed penis in the girls' locker room, versus an accidentally flashed vagina in the girls' locker room.

So, here is my answer to that question.

Because if you see a penis, there's a man attached to it, and men are not supposed to be in the girls' locker room, because of the invasion of the girls' privacy involved with that.

Now, I understand that some people object to my characterization, and will insist that some women also have penises, but now we're back to definitions.


All of the issues related to that have been discussed at length in the 200 pages of dialog in this thread and its predecessors. I'll summarize my opinion in a couple of sentences. It is impossible to keep everyone happy. If you allow the transwoman into the women's locker room, the majority of the women, or if you prefer, cis-women, will be unhappy. If you do not, the transwomen will be unhappy. I side with the majority of the women.

 

[Elaedith]

Is there a difference between a deliberately flashed male penis, and a deliberately flashed female penis?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not sure when that happened. Do you have any inside knowledge of who is going to be Time's Person of the Year 2020? Or are you refering to Caitlyn Jenner being one of 25 Women of the Year 2015, declared by Glamour Magazine?

Apparently it was Glamour, not Time. She was a runner up for Time, losing out to Angela Merkel. I smooshed the two together in my mind-brain.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is there a difference between a deliberately flashed male penis, and a deliberately flashed female penis?

Well, given that there is no such thing as a female penis, I'd have to go with yes.

To compound this particular incident, this was A 45 YEAR OLD TRANSWOMAN's INTACT PENIS being exposed to UNDERAGE FEMALES.

 

[p0lka]

I'm not absolutely 100% certain that I understand the question, so I will clarify what I think the question is before giving my answer. I think the question is what is the difference between an accidentally flashed penis in the girls' locker room, versus an accidentally flashed vagina in the girls' locker room.

So, here is my answer to that question.

Because if you see a penis, there's a man attached to it, and men are not supposed to be in the girls' locker room, because of the invasion of the girls' privacy involved with that.

Ok, my question was

If the flashing is accidental, then I don't see the difference between an accidentally flashed penis, or an accidentally flashed vagina.
Do you think there's a difference?

your reply seems to be 'depends on what room it happens in' is that correct?

 

[p0lka]

Well, given that there is no such thing as a female penis, I'd have to go with yes.

To compound this particular incident, this was A 45 YEAR OLD TRANSWOMAN's INTACT PENIS being exposed to UNDERAGE FEMALES.

Oh my lord, call the police if you think the transwoman was getting off on it, otherwise get used to kids seeing adult genitalia for blooming sake. ridiculous.

 

[d4m10n]

If the flashing is accidental, then I don't see the difference between an accidentally flashed penis, or an accidentally flashed [vulva]...

I can see an obvious difference. One of those two organs is used in the crime of forcible rape in the common law sense of the term, whereas the other one inspires fear in nearly no one.

 

[Meadmaker]

Ok, my question was


your reply seems to be 'depends on what room it happens in' is that correct?

Yes.

And, to repeat something that has come up again and again, the real issue when a male bodied person enters the female space is not that the females might see a penis, but that the male might see the females' private parts that they do not want to be seen by a male.

As the words from the news story went, "Can she put the towel over her eyes?"

ETA: It's another one of those things that baffle me. How can people miss that point again and again and again?

 

[Meadmaker]

Oh my lord, call the police if you think the transwoman was getting off on it, otherwise get used to kids seeing adult genitalia for blooming sake. ridiculous.

I do thing he was getting off on it, but they did call the authorities, and the authorities said they could do nothing about it. (I don't recall if the police were called. I believe the parents complained to the school that ran the pool and the locker rooms.)

For further explanation, see my previous post.

 

[p0lka]

Yes.

And, to repeat something that has come up again and again, the real issue when a male bodied person enters the female space is not that the females might see a penis, but that the male might see the females' private parts that they do not want to be seen by a male.

As the words from the news story went, "Can she put the towel over her eyes?"

ETA: It's another one of those things that baffle me. How can people miss that point again and again and again?

The whole thing baffles me, fear of nudity is weird, also

'the real issue when a male bodied person enters the female space is not that the females might see a penis, but that the male might see the females' private parts that they do not want to be seen by a male'

presumably that works the other way round, yeah?

 

[Meadmaker]

The whole thing baffles me, fear of nudity is weird, also

'the real issue when a male bodied person enters the female space is not that the females might see a penis, but that the male might see the females' private parts that they do not want to be seen by a male'

presumably that works the other way round, yeah?

Not really. No. Men and women are different.

To some extent there are comparable issues, but it's not the same, at least for most people. However, there are men who would be affronted by the presence of a female in the men's locker room, so females ought to respect that, but the difference in sex really does matter.

Something that came up in the not too distant past in this thread that I didn't get at first was how very sexist this non-sexist posturing really was. Basically, a lot of men are saying, "I wouldn't be offended by the presence of a female in my locker room, so they shouldn't be offended by the presence of a male in their locker room." It's just completely ignoring what women want. Ask the women. Do they object to a male in their locker room? If they say "Yes", and you say, "Too bad", you are being sexist. You are saying that the concerns of women are unimportant.

ETA: Just to clarify, when you say that you are baffled by the fear of nudity, I'm not going to say that you are wrong, but I am going to say that this fear of nudity, this desire to not be seen naked by the opposite sex is very common among women. There is great debate about whether this is due to culture or due to instinct or (my opinion) a combination of both, but regardless of where it comes from, it is very real. To dismiss it is sexist.

 

[Ziggurat]

The whole thing baffles me, fear of nudity is weird, also

'the real issue when a male bodied person enters the female space is not that the females might see a penis, but that the male might see the females' private parts that they do not want to be seen by a male'

presumably that works the other way round, yeah?

I'm not sure your quote is quite accurate. I think females in a female-only space have reason to fear seeing male genitals.

Now, I don't mean to say that genitals are in and of themselves something to be scared of. But there are common taboos against exposing your genitals to people of the opposite sex. If someone knowingly exposes their genitals to you in an inappropriate context, that indicates that they are disregarding that social taboo. And it is that disregard which represents a possible threat. If someone disregards one set of social taboos, that indicates a higher risk that they will disregard other social taboos, such as the taboo against sexual assault. So inappropriate nudity is a proxy indicator for other antisocial behavior and thus danger. The correlation need not be perfect in order for the fear to be a rational response.

In regards to your question, though, it doesn't work the other way round to the same extent. First, in regards to my above comments about antisocial behavior, women pose less of a physical threat to men, so a woman who is willing to do bad things is less dangerous (in general) than a man who is similarly willing. Second, in regards to the fear of someone of the opposite sex seeing your genitals, men are more sexually aroused by visuals than women are. So to the degree that people prone to misbehavior because of sexual arousal, men are more at risk of that than women.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The whole thing baffles me, fear of nudity is weird, also

Fear of nudity is weird, yes. And conceptually I agree quite strongly that nudity shouldn't, in and of itself, be considered something horrible.

But I'm also assuming, based on your responses here, that you don't have kids? Or at least you don't have female children? Because I'm at a bit of a loss how an adult male exposing their genitalia to children when those children are also naked doesn't at least cause a small amount of concern.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not sure your quote is quite accurate. I think females in a female-only space have reason to fear seeing male genitals.

Now, I don't mean to say that genitals are in and of themselves something to be scared of. But there are common taboos against exposing your genitals to people of the opposite sex. If someone knowingly exposes their genitals to you in an inappropriate context, that indicates that they are disregarding that social taboo. And it is that disregard which represents a possible threat. If someone disregards one set of social taboos, that indicates a higher risk that they will disregard other social taboos, such as the taboo against sexual assault. So inappropriate nudity is a proxy indicator for other antisocial behavior and thus danger. The correlation need not be perfect in order for the fear to be a rational response.

In regards to your question, though, it doesn't work the other way round to the same extent. First, in regards to my above comments about antisocial behavior, women pose less of a physical threat to men, so a woman who is willing to do bad things is less dangerous (in general) than a man who is similarly willing. Second, in regards to the fear of someone of the opposite sex seeing your genitals, men are more sexually aroused by visuals than women are. So to the degree that people prone to misbehavior because of sexual arousal, men are more at risk of that than women.

The highlighted part resonates with me.

Even further when you consider that it's a much older male person exposing their genitalia to under-age girls.

With that context, I'm pretty sure that if a 45 year old female exposed her naked breasts and pubis to a locker room of unclad underage boys, the parents of those boys would be rightfully concerned about the event as well.

 

[Ziggurat]

The highlighted part resonates with me.

Even further when you consider that it's a much older male person exposing their genitalia to under-age girls.

With that context, I'm pretty sure that if a 45 year old female exposed her naked breasts and pubis to a locker room of unclad underage boys, the parents of those boys would be rightfully concerned about the event as well.

Quite so. That would be very suggestive of predatory behavior, since adult women having sexual relations with underage boys is a thing, for some reason.

 

[p0lka]

I'm not sure your quote is quite accurate. I think females in a female-only space have reason to fear seeing male genitals.

yeah i got the quote thingy wrong it should have been this

the real issue when a male bodied person enters the female space is not that the females might see a penis, but that the male might see the females' private parts that they do not want to be seen by a male.

Now, I don't mean to say that genitals are in and of themselves something to be scared of. But there are common taboos against exposing your genitals to people of the opposite sex. If someone knowingly exposes their genitals to you in an inappropriate context, that indicates that they are disregarding that social taboo. And it is that disregard which represents a possible threat. If someone disregards one set of social taboos, that indicates a higher risk that they will disregard other social taboos, such as the taboo against sexual assault. So inappropriate nudity is a proxy indicator for other antisocial behavior and thus danger. The correlation need not be perfect in order for the fear to be a rational response.

One of my earlier points was exactly that,

surely the issue would be with the people that are deliberately flashing their bits to underage girls?
The intentions of the flasher would be the cause for concern, report them to the police and get them kicked out.

If the flashing is accidental, then I don't see the difference between an accidentally flashed penis, or an accidentally flashed vagina.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Well, given that there is no such thing as a female penis, I'd have to go with yes.

To compound this particular incident, this was A 45 YEAR OLD TRANSWOMAN's INTACT PENIS being exposed to UNDERAGE FEMALES.

Capital letters and formatting doesn't make your post more effective.

Kids don't care about genitalia of either kind. Oftentimes (possibly not in all countries, but it's common here in Scandinavia) kids are brought into the opposite gender's locker rooms by parents if for example only one parent is going to the swimming pool that day. I don't think any of the little boys seeing OMG INTACT BREASTS AND GIRL BUTTS AND VAGINURS (or girls seeing naked guys of all ages and shapes and sizes) are too traumatized.

Then you have unisex locker rooms, shower rooms, and saunas, kids seeing family members and relatives naked, et cetera. I haven't heard of many cases of trauma.