Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

Here's an excellent interview from a local news station of a police officer with direct personal experience regarding the protests. Addresses most of the concerns the usual suspects bring up about the PPB's response to protests - such as attacks on journalists, use of CS gas, what might happen if the police did not intervene at all. The interviewer does a credible job of pressing the guy on his viewpoints. Naturally none of the people who need to see it will have the patience to do so.

SuburbanTurkey said:
I will take the lack of response as a tacit acknowledgement that there really isn't any hope of the PPB successfully quelling the ongoing unrest using their current tactics.
I cannot speak for other locations or municipalities - but it is not, nor ever has been, the goals or job of the Portland police to "quell unrest". They show up frequently to monitor gatherings and to try to intimidate people into behaving. They get involved when their supervisors deem a situation to pose a significant risk to property or life. Such as when angry crowds start poorly controlled fires in residential neighborhoods, throw paint-filled balloons at the windshields of moving vehicles, break into and start looting a mall, or toss hard projectiles at other human beings. They've often been ignoring minor acts of vandalism; like, say, tearing up public picnic tables (at least when it doesn't happen right in front of them) or leaving piles of garbage behind for other people to clean up. Of course, the perspectives of police management on whether a situation is destructive enough to warrant intervention or not may differ sharply from that of the protesters themselves for a hundred thousand reasons.

As for whether their tactics have been successful or not - they've managed (in conjunction with firefighters) to prevent any major uncontrolled fires thusfar to the best of my knowledge.
 
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Here's an excellent interview from a local news station of a police officer with direct personal experience regarding the protests. Addresses most of the concerns the usual suspects bring up about the PPB's response to protests - such as attacks on journalists, use of CS gas, what might happen if the police did not intervene at all. The interviewer does a credible job of pressing the guy on his viewpoints. Naturally none of the people who need to see it will have the patience to do so.

I cannot speak for other locations or municipalities - but it is not, nor ever has been, the goals or job of the Portland police to "quell unrest". They show up frequently to monitor gatherings and to try to intimidate people into behaving. They get involved when their supervisors deem a situation to pose a significant risk to property or life. Such as when angry crowds start poorly controlled fires in residential neighborhoods, throw paint-filled balloons at the windshields of moving vehicles, break into and start looting a mall, or toss hard projectiles at other human beings. They've often been ignoring minor acts of vandalism; like, say, tearing up public picnic tables or leaving piles of garbage behind for other people to clean up. Of course, the perspectives of police management on whether a situation is destructive enough to warrant intervention or not may differ sharply from that of the protesters themselves for a hundred thousand reasons.

As for whether their tactics have been successful or not - they've managed (in conjunction with firefighters) to prevent any major uncontrolled fires thusfar to the best of my knowledge.

I don't really care to sit through an hour long interview, so I'll just ask: What does he have to say about police brutality, especially against people of color? What suggestions does he have to end police bias and centuries of racism in the police force?
 
:confused: I don't think you read Delphic Oracle's post all the way through. It might be worth taking a look at his last couple of sentences and reconsidering your interpretation.

These and many other absurdities is why I stopped doing citizen journalism of civil unrest. That and calmly explaining the full context of a situation doesn't generate as much viewership as screaming epithets at 100 dB.

I've gone back and looked again, but I still stand by my original reaction. What I've snipped from the post is a list of splashy gory fringe cases, which is why I'm glad this 'citizen journalist' is no longer active. What a journalist chooses to put the magnifying glass on, is what they want the world to focus on, to see exclusively, to highlight as the most important part. The demonstrators are right to be upset, because when you run a magnifying glass over the little bit that you want the world to think is important, it blocks from view the rest of it. Protesters are the most important part of a protest, not rioters, not vandals, not even mobs. But what bleeds, leads, so the images of people holding signs are too boring to compete with broken windows and blood on the sidewalk. Someone into sensational journalism, only caring about the violent bits, is more harm than help.
 
I've gone back and looked again, but I still stand by my original reaction. What I've snipped from the post is a list of splashy gory fringe cases, which is why I'm glad this 'citizen journalist' is no longer active. What a journalist chooses to put the magnifying glass on, is what they want the world to focus on, to see exclusively, to highlight as the most important part. The demonstrators are right to be upset, because when you run a magnifying glass over the little bit that you want the world to think is important, it blocks from view the rest of it. Protesters are the most important part of a protest, not rioters, not vandals, not even mobs. But what bleeds, leads, so the images of people holding signs are too boring to compete with broken windows and blood on the sidewalk. Someone into sensational journalism, only caring about the violent bits, is more harm than help.

Are you reading that as if Delphic Oracle were producing stories that matched those headlines?
 
It did sound like those were the angles Delphic Oracle were focusing on, yes. Not showing protesters at their own protest is insulting, it tells them that they're not the most important part of the event, and even worse, it tells the world that the protesters aren't the most important part of the event. They ARE the event. Anything else is periphery.....but it's splashy and gory and makes good pictures.

It attracts the kind of people who'll reach for their camera to snap a few shots of a girl dragging herself out of earthquake rubble, still with legs buried, instead of helping her out.
 
It did sound like those were the angles Delphic Oracle were focusing on, yes. Not showing protesters at their own protest is insulting, it tells them that they're not the most important part of the event, and even worse, it tells the world that the protesters aren't the most important part of the event. They ARE the event. Anything else is periphery.....but it's splashy and gory and makes good pictures.

It attracts the kind of people who'll reach for their camera to snap a few shots of a girl dragging herself out of earthquake rubble, still with legs buried, instead of helping her out.
You certainly have managed to extrapolate quite a lot from one snarky-bitter post about bad behaviors I experienced.

ETA: In a twist of irony, your ignorant declarations of my motives amidst this discussion of chaotic civil unrest is a great example of what drove me away.
 
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It was a list of one-size-fits-all declaratives that force everyone to feel like they have to choose from only a limited set of positions and must take all the associated baggage, presumed alliances and rivalries that go with it.

ETA: so I apologize if that was unclear.

As to my coverage style, after you've been to a few of these affairs, situational awareness telegraphs a lot (especially on the police side). I prefer being away from the flashpoints for my own safety, but also because a comprehensive shot is easier to follow than tight shots amidst the jostling. Plus there's the meta-narrative of 60 phones and cameras all pointing at the intense action so described. This visual result of bodies rushing in and blocking any view of the continuing incident was its own metaphor.

If anything, my coverage included the tendency for such flashpoints to draw disproprtionate coverage and create more confusion and fragmented perspectives.

Cinema Verite isn't for everyone, I guess.
 
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It did sound like those were the angles Delphic Oracle were focusing on, yes. Not showing protesters at their own protest is insulting, it tells them that they're not the most important part of the event, and even worse, it tells the world that the protesters aren't the most important part of the event. They ARE the event. Anything else is periphery.....but it's splashy and gory and makes good pictures.

It attracts the kind of people who'll reach for their camera to snap a few shots of a girl dragging herself out of earthquake rubble, still with legs buried, instead of helping her out.

This is how I took the post as well. But s/he has clarified in that last post, so...eh, time to move on.
 
Today, right wing and left wing LARPers are facing off at the Justice Center. Some of the right wingers have long guns(and are brandishing them) and shields with the fascist slogan "WG1WGA".
Both "sides" in this battle are pieces of ****, the right wing side being worse than the other.
In my opinion, NOBODY should bring weapons to a protest or demonstration. I'm not talking about gas masks, body armor, or shields but: guns, knives, "less lethal guns" like paint ball guns and pellet guns, pepper spray, fireworks, lasers, baseball bats, and so on. Also, if you are actively participating in a protest/riot where a good portion of the people are not just in posession of these weapons, but brandishing and actively using them as happens each night at the Justice centyer, you have no claims whatsoever of being involved in a legitimate protest. Legitimate protests happen everyday here in Portland and they are a good thing and there is real progress to be made, there is no need to be involved in a riot and there is no need to join the LARPers.

Here are some of the right and left LARPers in action:
https://twitter.com/MrOlmos/status/1297272063284060161
 
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What I've snipped from the post is a list of splashy gory fringe cases, which is why I'm glad this 'citizen journalist' is no longer active. What a journalist chooses to put the magnifying glass on, is what they want the world to focus on, to see exclusively, to highlight as the most important part. The demonstrators are right to be upset, because when you run a magnifying glass over the little bit that you want the world to think is important, it blocks from view the rest of it. Protesters are the most important part of a protest, not rioters, not vandals, not even mobs. But what bleeds, leads, so the images of people holding signs are too boring to compete with broken windows and blood on the sidewalk. Someone into sensational journalism, only caring about the violent bits, is more harm than help.
Ironic, because a fair number of the police-reform demonstrators here in Portland are doing precisely what you claim to object to. You don't see it, because you don't live here. The truth is that you don't have the faintest clue as to what percentage of the demonstrators here are destructive. They could be almost entirely destructive; or almost entirely peaceful and you'd personally still be here chanting the same tired old tune. I don't personally know - and I do live here. I do have the perception that a comparatively small but very active number are focused on (or willing to engage in) destruction for what it's worth...any other resident-posters here care to agree or disagree?

What I do know is that:

1) There are groups actively organizing destructive terror campaigns - and I don't say this lightly; I've posted links to their social media upthread.

2) Tribalistic sentiments have lead untold numbers of people into blindly defending or enabling these groups without any sort of critical thought process; or just plain denying acts of violence committed by people with congruent sociopolitical views.

This is how I took the post as well. But s/he has clarified in that last post, so...eh, time to move on.
I've gone back and looked again, but I still stand by my original reaction.
Yeah, not so fast, kid(s). That's precisely the sort of unreasoning tribalism that is causing problems here. Just a hint of someone having different viewpoints and you completely ignore the context or anything else being said. That is exactly the sort of sentiment leading people to whitewash the violence committed by their favored faction.

Couple things about Portland specifically:
* From the outset, there has been a general consensus that there is at least room for improvement with respect to the policing, racism, and violence. Even amongst the local police department (the PPB).

* Yes, the major local police union (the PPA) has been a malign force that has stifled police accountability in Portland for many years.

* Both the governor, Kate Brown, and the Portland city council passed reform bills shortly after the unrest over George Floyd began.

* The major point of contention has been what precisely constitutes appropriate and effective reforms. Some percentage of the proposals had been already been enacted before this mess even began unbeknownst to demonstrators. Some percentage are things the population will never agree to, such as completely abolishing the police. Some are lip-service changes designed to allay public concern over policing without instituting any effective changes. A percentage would be acceptable to all (or most) parties if anyone seriously considered them. I've seen precious little actual public dialogue and debate over appropriate policy between groups with different ideas. Maybe it's out there but I've just been missing it.

* Both the state of Oregon, and the city of Portland have robust and frequently used mechanisms by which people can democratically introduce legislation that could alter funding or reform policing. If the sponsors can find enough registered voters to sign petitions. A group of several hundred people individually talking to people and politely asking them to sign petitions would do a metric ****ton more toward effecting actual change than a crowd of several hundred angrily blocking traffic and shouting slogans in the night.

The violence and destruction are not helping anyone or anything. It will not convince the general population to accept removing police or prisons. The likes of Andy Ngo, Fox News, and the Trump campaign are salivating at the prospect of using footage of it to hammer and discredit the national BLM movement with it; as well as using it against Biden/Harris this year. It WILL come up during the presidential campaign.
 
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You can pass as many bills as you want but when the police ignore everything and act like an occupying power it counts for nothing.
 
You can pass as many bills as you want but when the police ignore everything and act like an occupying power it counts for nothing.
It is possible to create independent bodies to enforce oversight and reforms. At least one proposed measure does exactly that.
 
'proposed measures' are all very well but count for nothing until they are enacted and the police are actually reformed.
 
,
Today, right wing and left wing LARPers are facing off at the Justice Center. Some of the right wingers have long guns(and are brandishing them) and shields with the fascist slogan "WG1WGA".
Both "sides" in this battle are pieces of ****, the right wing side being worse than the other.
In my opinion, NOBODY should bring weapons to a protest or demonstration. I'm not talking about gas masks, body armor, or shields but: guns, knives, "less lethal guns" like paint ball guns and pellet guns, pepper spray, fireworks, lasers, baseball bats, and so on. Also, if you are actively participating in a protest/riot where a good portion of the people are not just in posession of these weapons, but brandishing and actively using them as happens each night at the Justice centyer, you have no claims whatsoever of being involved in a legitimate protest. Legitimate protests happen everyday here in Portland and they are a good thing and there is real progress to be made, there is no need to be involved in a riot and there is no need to join the LARPers.

Here are some of the right and left LARPers in action:
https://twitter.com/MrOlmos/status/1297272063284060161

Indeed. One right winger broke a journalist's hand by beating him with an asp baton. Another drew and pointed a revolver at the antifascists across the street. Another antifa type was injured by a small bomb that was thrown. Tiny Toese was conspicuously present, despite having an active arrest warrant for prior violence at protests and being well known by local cops.

Right wingers showed a level of deliberate violence much more severe than any of the many protests by BLM types that have resulted in brutal police dispersal. Despite this, they got the VIP treatment by the cops.

After the violent right wingers left, the cops declared an unlawful assembly and started beating the crowd.

Cops and clan, hand in hand. Just like always.

Alan Swinney captured in multiple live streams brandishing a revolver from across the street. This was after he spent much of the day firing a paintball gun from behind the fash shield wall.

https://twitter.com/PNWAntifascist/status/1297294215819354112?s=19
 
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Indeed. One right winger broke a journalist's hand by beating him with an asp baton. Another drew and pointed a revolver at the antafascists across the street. Another antifa type was injured by a small bomb that was thrown. Tiny Toese was conspicuously present, despite having an active arrest warrant for prior violence at pretests and being well known by local cops.

Right wingers showed a level of deliberate violence much more severe than any of the many protests by BLM types that have resulted in brutal police dispersal. Despite this, they got the VIP treatment by the cops.

After the violent right wingers left, the cops declared an unlawful assembly and started beating the crowd.

Cops and clan, hand in hand. Just like always.

Alan Swinney captured in multiple live streams brandishing a revolver from across the street. This was after he spent much of the day firing a paintball gun from behind the fash shield wall.

https://twitter.com/PNWAntifascist/status/1297294215819354112?s=19

This ******* belongs behind bars.
 
This ******* belongs behind bars.
Allan's Twitter feed has sumerous examples of him committing unlawful assaults with a paintball gun and a giant can of mace. These are videos he either took himself, or videos he clipped from others and reposted.

He's broadcasting evidence of criminal assaults under his real name, as openly as can be. If the PPB doesn't act on this, it's because they choose to enable fascist violence on their behalf.

https://twitter.com/PermianEvents?s=09
 
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...

2) Tribalistic sentiments have lead untold numbers of people into blindly defending or enabling these groups without any sort of critical thought process; or just plain denying acts of violence committed by people with congruent sociopolitical views.



Yeah, not so fast, kid(s). That's precisely the sort of unreasoning tribalism that is causing problems here. Just a hint of someone having different viewpoints and you completely ignore the context or anything else being said. That is exactly the sort of sentiment leading people to whitewash the violence committed by their favored faction.
...

It is kinda like Hitler and Stalin fighting it out on the streets and people are asking "So which side are you on?"
 
A proud day for Portland, all things considered. Hundreds of organized, armed fascists descended on the streets for the sole purpose of crushing dissent, with the implicit approval of local police. The people of Portland met them directly, held their ground, and forced the fascists to retreat.

Now comes the work of doxxing the violent actors and shaming the PPB into taking action against obvious dangerous elements.
 
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The glaring disparate treatment of right wingers by the PPB is impossible to ignore

WaPo said:
The decision not to intervene was a striking contrast to police tactics at several left-leaning Black Lives Matter protests in recent weeks. Officers have consistently declared unlawful assemblies and riots at nighttime protests that have devolved into property damage and projectiles thrown at police. Although those events have involved significant property damage at times, they have not involved firearms or rampant brawling among demonstrators.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/22/portland-police-far-right-protest/


WaPo also notices Alan Swinney and mentions a Marine veteran antifascist protestor who was struck in the eye by one of his many paintballs.

Even before he showed up at Saturday’s rally, there was an active warrant for Toese’s arrest for violating other terms of his probation.

As the far-right crowd left downtown Portland, Toese walked past several Portland police officers who did not attempt to apprehend him.
...

After the far-right groups had cleared out of downtown, members of the left-leaning crowd reconvened in Terry Schrunk Plaza, which is federal property. Federal police declared the gathering an unlawful assembly and drove the protesters out of the plaza, though the crowd had become largely peaceful as the afternoon waned.
Cops waited until their fash friends cleared the scene then declared an unlawful assembly in order to beat the remaining BLM protestors.


Can anyone even pretend that PPB is a dispassionate enforcer of the laws after this event? It's clear that the PPB uses their power to advocate their own interests and are very willing to work in coordination with violent fascists against their common political enemies
 
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