Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

Pretty much puts to bed the myth that what law enforcement are doing in Portland has anything to do with enforcing the law or protecting the public.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
'proposed measures' are all very well but count for nothing until they are enacted and the police are actually reformed.
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Police unions are also in the habit of defanging these sorts of "review boards", often by simply refusing to cooperate with them in all situations. This is why people actually refuse to consider trying this approach yet again, often having tried these unsuccessfully three or more previous times for the same department.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Can anyone even pretend that PPB is a dispassionate enforcer of the laws after this event?
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Yes. The trumpkins in tveir echo chambers will still harp on about Marxist Antifa thugs, racist BLM, and "Democrat cities" in anarchy. Many/most 8f them won't even hear about this.
 
Reports from Denver saying that "anarchists" are weilding axes. A cop has a concussion and third degree burns. Reports of trees being set on fire.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The glaring disparate treatment of right wingers by the PPB is impossible to ignore
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It's impossible for you to even make sense of in the first place, evidently. From the police statement on the matter:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=261125 said:
"Incident commanders have to weigh out the entire situation to determine if police action is likely to make things safer or not. In this case there were hundreds of individuals and many weapons within the groups and an extremely limited amount of police resources actually available to address such a crowd. Additionally, PPB members have been the focus of over 80 days of violent actions directed at the police, which is a major consideration for determining if police resources are necessary to interject between two groups with individuals who appear to be willingly engaging in physical confrontations for short durations.

While the activity in the group met the definition of a riot, PPB did not declare one because there were not adequate police resources available to address such a declaration. PPB had roughly 30 officers available for crowd management and there were several hundred individuals associated with the events downtown."
<snip>
PPB had to be judicious with our limited resources today especially since many of our members worked during the riot this morning and had very little sleep.
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For reference: A significant police presence had been mobilized to deal with an assault on the NE police precinct the night before (which ran through early Saturday morning). Note here that it often takes the police a fair bit of time between the onset of violence and determination of riot or unlawful assembly. It took the PPB an hour and a half after people started destroying police cars during that protest to call it an unlawful assembly. The protest and counter-protest started around noonish on Saturday. Scant hours after that downtown left-right showdown (Saturday night), the PPB had to divert forces to yet another riot.

Most of the violence has occurred at night thusfar. It bears verification of course, but the claims of being short-staffed and spread thin are hardly far-fetched.

In contrast:
SuburbanTurkey said:
Cops waited until their fash friends cleared the scene then declared an unlawful assembly in order to beat the remaining BLM protestors.

Can anyone even pretend that PPB is a dispassionate enforcer of the laws after this event? It's clear that the PPB uses their power to advocate their own interests and are very willing to work in coordination with violent fascists against their common political enemies
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Sorry to burst your bubble and all, but that was pure DHS, not PPB. The Justice Center and Terry Schrunk plaza are both federal property. PPB and federal "police" share jurisdiction there so, yeah, DHS has the authority to declare unlawful assembly all on its lonesome and clear out protesters.

I'm sure, though, given a police force composed of human beings and a pair of factions (ignoring for a moment the fact that neither of these groups were a singular or cohesive faction) where one is assembling at least under the pretext of supporting police while the other has been assaulting, vandalizing property of, threatening, and spitting insults at the police for months - that it's totally reasonable to expect equal amounts of patience :rolleyes:

SuburbanTurkey said:
A proud day for Portland, all things considered.
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I don't consider a day where adults beat each other with sticks, or Proud Boys turn up in my city and draw guns on a crowd or assault people for merely following them but manage to get away without being arrested because people are being ******* stupid to be a "proud day".
 
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Shadowdweller said:
I'm sure, though, given a police force composed of human beings and a pair of factions (ignoring for a moment the fact that neither of these groups were a singular or cohesive faction) where one is assembling at least under the pretext of supporting police while the other has been assaulting, vandalizing property of, threatening, and spitting insults at the police for months - that it's totally reasonable to expect equal amounts of patience :rolleyes:
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That is, in fact, exactly what is reasonable to expect. It's the job of the police in a Democratic society. That it didn't happen is a huge problem and another black mark on American policing.
 
uke2se said:
That is, in fact, exactly what is reasonable to expect. It's the job of the police in a Democratic society.
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Not the slightest little bit. Or at least not the slightest little bit in any society where the police are supposedly afforded equal protection of the laws themselves and assault/vandalism/sustained harassment against the general population aren't considered perfectly legal.

uke2se said:
That it didn't happen is a huge problem and another black mark on American policing.
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I would tend to say that the fact you have unreservedly presumed that the first clause of that sentence is true is a much more tangible black mark on this Skeptics forum.
 
Shadowdweller said:
Not the slightest little bit. Or at least not the slightest little bit in any society where the police are supposedly afforded equal protection of the laws themselves and assault/vandalism/sustained harassment against the general population aren't considered perfectly legal.

I would tend to say that the fact you have unreservedly presumed that the first clause of that sentence is true is a much more tangible black mark on this Skeptics forum.
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You seem to believe that the police are to be expected to behave as ordinary citizens and should be judged accordingly. You are wrong. The police are afforded extra-ordinary power that ordinary citizens don't have. As such, the police are to be considered and judged not as ordinary citizens but as the wielders of said extra-ordinary power. That means, they cannot chose to not arrest a wanted person just because that person happens to be at a pro-cop demonstration and then declare a gathering unlawful as soon as the pro-cop demonstrators leave. Doing so aligns the police with a political view, and that is poisonous to Democracy.
 
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Riots overnight in Kenosha Wisconsin after video spreads showing local police killing Jacob Blake. Jacob was shot 7 times in the back by a cop holding his shirt while trying to climb into his truck. He was being treated in the ICU and it remains to be seen if he will survive.

Riots sprang up quickly as the video spreads. One cop was knocked unconscious by a thrown brick, and reports of small fires.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/23/kenosha-police-shooting-video-wisconsin/

The people aren't going to lay down to the cops anymore. Give them hell Kenosha!

ETA: pig gets bricked video. You love to see it. https://twitter.com/BotchlaUS/status/1297727292324683776?s=19
 
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Do violent anarchists eventually end up using a strategy whereby they attack news reporters who are not fully sympathetic to violent anarchy?

Successful violent takeovers and cultural revolutions probably require a national press and media which is entirely on their side. I think that we see this looking back at history.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Riots overnight in Kenosha Wisconsin after video spreads showing local police killing Jacob Blake. Jacob was shot 7 times in the back by a cop holding his shirt while trying to climb into his truck. He was being treated in the ICU and it remains to be seen if he will survive.

Riots sprang up quickly as the video spreads. One cop was knocked unconscious by a thrown brick, and reports of small fires.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/23/kenosha-police-shooting-video-wisconsin/

The people aren't going to lay down to the cops anymore. Give them hell Kenosha!

ETA: pig gets bricked video. You love to see it. https://twitter.com/BotchlaUS/status/1297727292324683776?s=19
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Oh. My. God.

You are channeling Joseph Goebbels.
 
uke2se said:
You seem to believe that the police are to be expected to behave as ordinary citizens and should be judged accordingly. You are wrong. The police are afforded extra-ordinary power that ordinary citizens don't have. As such, the police are to be considered and judged not as ordinary citizens but as the wielders of said extra-ordinary power. That means, they cannot chose to not arrest a wanted person just because that person happens to be at a pro-cop demonstration and then declare a gathering unlawful as soon as the pro-cop demonstrators leave. Doing so aligns the police with a political view, and that is poisonous to Democracy.
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Whereas you are, irrefutably, ignoring key aspects of the statement you're trying to respond to. Here, let me jog your memory:

Shadowdweller said:
I'm sure, though, given a police force composed of human beings and a pair of factions (ignoring for a moment the fact that neither of these groups were a singular or cohesive faction) where one is assembling at least under the pretext of supporting police while the other has been assaulting, vandalizing property of, threatening, and spitting insults at the police for months - that it's totally reasonable to expect equal amounts of patience :rolleyes:
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This isn't merely being "pro-cop" vs "anti-cop". It's having a personal history of actual violence and aggression toward the very entity you believe should be treating both sides the same. Police are necessarily given discretion over aspects of law enforcement, such as the amount of care and resources they devote to an arrest given their assessment of threat level. It is stupid beyond belief, for example, to expect the same level of caution and manpower to be devoted toward arresting a suspect with a nerf bat versus another with a firearm. Or a drunk teenager behind the wheel of a car versus a convicted felon who has killed multiple police officers.

Similarly, there is discretion given over which crime out of several to pursue arrests or devote resources to. Take the case of Tusitala "Tiny" Toese. He's got a history of (misdemeanor) assault. He's a member of the Proud Boys - an organization that explicitly endorses violence. He's got warrants out for his arrest. He absolutely should be behind bars for his actions. HOWEVER - Toese's warrants aren't actually for assault (feel free to look it up yourself: https://webportal.courts.oregon.gov/portal/Home/Dashboard/29). He pled guilty to assault. He's wanted because the assault was a parole violation. (Showing up at a protest was ANOTHER parole violation in his case btw). Given the circumstance of a grand chaotic melee where multiple parties are ACTIVELY assaulting each other, can you see why arresting a guy over a parole violation might not actually be the highest priority?
 
Shadowdweller said:
Whereas you are, irrefutably, ignoring key aspects of the statement you're trying to respond to. Here, let me jog your memory:


This isn't merely being "pro-cop" vs "anti-cop". It's having a personal history of actual violence and aggression toward the very entity you believe should be treating both sides the same. Police are necessarily given discretion over aspects of law enforcement, such as the amount of care and resources they devote to an arrest given their assessment of threat level. It is stupid beyond belief, for example, to expect the same level of caution and manpower to be devoted toward arresting a suspect with a nerf bat versus another with a firearm. Or a drunk teenager behind the wheel of a car versus a convicted felon who has killed multiple police officers.

Similarly, there is discretion given over which crime out of several to pursue arrests or devote resources to. Take the case of Tusitala "Tiny" Toese. He's got a history of (misdemeanor) assault. He's a member of the Proud Boys - an organization that explicitly endorses violence. He's got warrants out for his arrest. He absolutely should be behind bars for his actions. HOWEVER - Toese's warrants aren't actually for assault (feel free to look it up yourself: https://webportal.courts.oregon.gov/portal/Home/Dashboard/29). He pled guilty to assault. He's wanted because the assault was a parole violation. (Showing up at a protest was ANOTHER parole violation in his case btw). Given the circumstance of a grand chaotic melee where multiple parties are ACTIVELY assaulting each other, can you see why arresting a guy over a parole violation might not actually be the highest priority?
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The people we are talking about and colloquially calling "pro-cop" are actually violent fascists who have spend a couple of years violently assaulting people, let's just remember that.

There is a reason the side you are deriding in this case (the anti-fascists, ironically) has a "history" of "violence" towards the Police. The reason is that the Police has a history of aggressive behavior towards peaceful demonstrators. That's pretty much the sheet that's been drawn back since the murder of George Floyd. The actions of the Police have been made clear. That's the case in Portland as well.

As for Tiny Toese, this isn't the first time Portland cops have seemingly played footsie with right wing extremists. That's the issue here. Grabbing Toese would have gone a long way towards showing an even and equal hand from the Police, but they chose not to, because they are in fact not interested in Policing fascist troublemakers the way they want to police anti-fascist demonstrators.

That said, no matter what "history" the demonstrators have, they should be able to expect the Police to treat them neutrally. If the Police cannot do that, they cannot perform their task. That is simply the way it is. If you cannot understand why, or disagree, you are not competent to hold this discussion.
 
Listen if the discussion is going to be nothing but full on pearl clutching whenever one side does something bad, let's establish some perspective.

- The broad social movements are disorganized with fuzzy edges. There is no rules as to who can or cannot call themselves part of this or that movement.

- Law Enforcement is organized with non-fuzzy (or at least far less fuzzy) edges. Cops can't play the "Well they aren't really part of our side" card.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Listen if the discussion is going to be nothing but full on pearl clutching whenever one side does something bad, let's establish some perspective.

- The broad social movements are disorganized with fuzzy edges. There is no rules as to who can or cannot call themselves part of this or that movement.

- Law Enforcement is organized with non-fuzzy (or at least far less fuzzy) edges. Cops can't play the "Well they aren't really part of our side" card.
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I agree completely, but I'd add the caveat that many of these right wing groups are fairly clearly organized in a way that BLM demonstrators are not. The Proud Boys is a membership organization with leaders and uniforms. They literally took a private bus into Portland for the purposes of committing coordinated political violence. Alan Swinney regularly flies across the country looking for opportunities to commit crimes. While Seattle and Portland are the common venues for their violence, they have been known to travel as a group to other hot-spot cities in order to instigate violence. Militia groups are likewise organised, membership organizations.

All the absurd worst accusations about these protestors are true for the right wingers. They are outside agitators bussing in to commit violence.

ETA: online antifascists and journalists claim to have ID'd the masked man that broke journalist Robert Evans finger with an asp baton. Took 24 hrs.

https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1297810821742055424?s=19
 
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