Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[caveman1917]

I think you'll find that in the social sciences, a lot of "definitions" are essentially circular. That happens if a rigorous definition is impossible, or any attempt at a rigorous definiton will lead to many examples that most people would agree belong to a specific category to be excluded, or many examples that most people would agree do not belong to a specific category to be included.

There is a reason the social sciences are not included in the "exact sciences".

A circular definition isn't just lacking some rigour or exactness, it is entirely meaningless. Luckily though the "exact sciences" do provide us with a proper definition of the term woman: adult female human.

 

[theprestige]

You can't use a word in its own definition, that makes the definition circular.

Gender roles are social constructs though. I don't think there's any other way to define them except as whatever society says they are.

My problem with the definition is that it's simultaneously -

- narrower than what many trans activists seem to be advocating for; and

- broader than what actually happens in real life. Effeminate men can tick all the gender-role-in-society boxes without being women. And not just effeminate men. Are house-husbands and stay-at-home-dads "women"? Are prison wives "women"? Are gay men who prefer to receive "women"? Etc.

Does it work the other way around? When Katharine Graham became the first female CEO of a Fortune 500 company, did she become a man at the same time? Or did she become a man much earlier, climbing the career ladder one manly rung at a time? Did Jeannie Leavitt become a man at some point on her way to being the first female fighter pilot in the US? Are Ronda Rousey and Gina Carano men?

Is RuPaul a woman? The whole idea seems very sexist. RuPaul can't be a woman, he does all kinds of manly things, like run a company and wear beautifully tailored suits. But wait - why are those things "manly" anyway?

 

[d4m10n]

I would say that person "acts according to their culture's female gender role or is otherwise recognised by their society as being a 'woman'."

I'm not comfortable with that level of recursion.

 

[theprestige]

What about females who reject their culture's female gender role but still say they're women? What about females whose culture doesn't recognize them as being 'women' for whatever reason, but who say they have a right to be recognized as women?

I think most feminists and women's rights activists throughout history would fall into the first category, and wouldn't actually be "women" according to Earthborn. Somehow this seems even less thought-through than his claim that doctors assign biological sex at birth. I'm not sure how that's possible but here we are.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If a female friend that wanted to be treated as a male whilst still having boobs asked you for advice, what would your advice be?

"You're my friend, so I'll call you whatever you want, Bob. But if you're serious about it, you might want to layer up some really tight sports bras and stop wearing sundresses and heels."

edit: i'm of the opinion that what's important is how you feel on the inside, not how you can be bothered to express it on the outside.

How does anyone validate how they feel on the inside in a way that is reasonable? I don't think gender dysphoria is comparable, but I'm going to be incredibly blunt: If a person says that they feel that they're being monitored by the little green men that only they can perceive... is 'how they feel on the inside' sufficient for anyone else to accept that they are not schizophrenic? If someone feels like Ryan Reynolds really truly loves her deep down inside, but just can't let on because his girlfriend would get jealous, and that's why she has to follow him and arrange for meetings that look unimportant to observers but she and Ryan both know they're actually delicate trysts... is 'how they feel inside' reason for anyone to be expected to believe she is not a stalker? If a devout pentecostal truly feels that god is communicating through them when they speak in tongues, does that suggest that the rest of us should accept their feeling that god is real?

Like I said, I'm not comparing gender dysphoria to schizophrenia or a stalker's obsession or religious zealotry. I'm quite certain that they are experiencing something that causes them sincere anxiety and distress. But the treatment for that distress seems to be the expectation that everyone else accept their feelings as being more true than observable reality.

There are reasonable lengths I think we should go to in order to alleviate unnecessary distress in other people, if we can. Infringing on the rights of other people isn't really a reasonable length though. And I get even more skeptical when the people asking me to suspend reality in favor of their feelings are people without a diagnosis, without any professional treatment, and who are making no effort at all to adapt themselves in order to alleviate their own distress.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Someone who has no intention or desire to appear feminine in any way is not a transwoman.

Even if they claim to be a woman? I don't really disagree with you on this... but there seem to be people who do.

A "woman" is any person who acts according to their culture's female gender role or is otherwise recognised by their society as being a "woman".

Hope that clears things up.

I think I need to see some examples. I think it is likely the individuals in question likely do have an "intention or desire to appear feminine in any way" but have for some reason not acted on it.

There have been a few earlier in the thread. I don't remember the names.

 

[Elaedith]

I mentioned the current climate in academia where research and publication has to conform to the narrative, which achieved by mobbing, no-platforming, smearing, attempts at censorship and bullying. I became aware of this through an attempt at no-platforming another academic that was probably the most irrational and disturbing thing I have ever encountered in a university. Subsequently I discovered that although a large number of academics are disturbed by what's happening, few are willing to speak out in public. The problem is that as more researchers are silenced or driven out, this leaves research and analysis increasingly compromised.

I recently saw this interview with Debra Soh, one of several researchers who left academia. In the early part she discusses the effects of activism on researchers.

 

[p0lka]

"You're my friend, so I'll call you whatever you want, Bob. But if you're serious about it, you might want to layer up some really tight sports bras and stop wearing sundresses and heels."



How does anyone validate how they feel on the inside in a way that is reasonable?

validation is an outside thing by definition, how people feel inside is how they feel.

I don't think gender dysphoria is comparable, but I'm going to be incredibly blunt: If a person says that they feel that they're being monitored by the little green men that only they can perceive... is 'how they feel on the inside' sufficient for anyone else to accept that they are not schizophrenic? If someone feels like Ryan Reynolds really truly loves her deep down inside, but just can't let on because his girlfriend would get jealous, and that's why she has to follow him and arrange for meetings that look unimportant to observers but she and Ryan both know they're actually delicate trysts... is 'how they feel inside' reason for anyone to be expected to believe she is not a stalker? If a devout pentecostal truly feels that god is communicating through them when they speak in tongues, does that suggest that the rest of us should accept their feeling that god is real?

Like I said, I'm not comparing gender dysphoria to schizophrenia or a stalker's obsession or religious zealotry. I'm quite certain that they are experiencing something that causes them sincere anxiety and distress. But the treatment for that distress seems to be the expectation that everyone else accept their feelings as being more true than observable reality.

There are reasonable lengths I think we should go to in order to alleviate unnecessary distress in other people, if we can. Infringing on the rights of other people isn't really a reasonable length though. And I get even more skeptical when the people asking me to suspend reality in favor of their feelings are people without a diagnosis, without any professional treatment, and who are making no effort at all to adapt themselves in order to alleviate their own distress.

I will treat people as to how they wish to be treated, but I have said previously in this thread that treating someone as female for instance, doesn't actually make them female, that would involve physical reality changes that aren't real. I will treat people however they wish to be treated though.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I will treat people as to how they wish to be treated, but I have said previously in this thread that treating someone as female for instance, doesn't actually make them female, that would involve physical reality changes that aren't real. I will treat people however they wish to be treated though.

So will I, to a degree. But the transwoman mentioned up thread a bit, who was using the ladies' locker room during the time that minors on the swim team were changing, and was exposing her male genitalia to the underage girls... I don't think I should treat that person as quite as much of a woman as I would a person with a vagina. I don't think she should be allowed to use that locker room any more. I definitely don't think it's reasonable that the girl's swim team ends up having to use considerably smaller accommodations in order to not have someone flashing penises at them while they change.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And if I'm honest, I'm also a bit miffed about a male-bodied person, with a male lived experience, getting Time's "Woman of the Year" award. Female people already don't get nearly enough credit, and having to share that meager spotlight with male people is grating.

 

[Joe Random]

<...> and was exposing her male genitalia to the underage girls<...>

Not saying this to pick on you (because I think we're pretty much on the same page on this issue), but the above showcases the heights of absurdity this issue can attain. At least to me.

 

[Joe Random]

And if I'm honest, I'm also a bit miffed about a male-bodied person, with a male lived experience, getting Time's "Woman of the Year" award. Female people already don't get nearly enough credit, and having to share that meager spotlight with male people is grating.

It's the Avatar syndrome : "I'm better at being you than you are.".

 

[p0lka]

So will I, to a degree. But the transwoman mentioned up thread a bit, who was using the ladies' locker room during the time that minors on the swim team were changing, and was exposing her male genitalia to the underage girls... I don't think I should treat that person as quite as much of a woman as I would a person with a vagina. I don't think she should be allowed to use that locker room any more. I definitely don't think it's reasonable that the girl's swim team ends up having to use considerably smaller accommodations in order to not have someone flashing penises at them while they change.

ah, i'll need to go back and read the bit you are referring to, but from your post surely the issue would be with the people that are deliberately flashing their bits to underage girls?
The intentions of the flasher would be the cause for concern, report them to the police and get them kicked out.

If the flashing is accidental, then I don't see the difference between an accidentally flashed penis, or an accidentally flashed vagina.
Do you think there's a difference?

 

[Venom]

Not saying this to pick on you (because I think we're pretty much on the same page on this issue), but the above showcases the heights of absurdity this issue can attain. At least to me.

The part you quoted from Emily's Cat's post reminds me of the trans couple(s) who had a baby. That....is rather mystifying.

 

[Meadmaker]

ah, i'll need to go back and read the bit you are referring to, but from your post surely the issue would be with the people that are deliberately flashing their bits to underage girls?
The intentions of the flasher would be the cause for concern, report them to the police and get them kicked out.

If the flashing is accidental, then I don't see the difference between an accidentally flashed penis, or an accidentally flashed vagina.
Do you think there's a difference?

I hear this over and over and over again, and for the life of me I cannot figure out what planet I am on when I hear it.

Every single time I use a locker room and take a shower after a workout, I "flash" everyone in the locker room. Everyone can see my stuff. That's why girls aren't allowed in my locker room and, more importantly, I am not allowed in the girls' locker room. That's why we have locker rooms.

The reason he is flashing his stuff to teenage girls, and why he is seeing what they have as well is that he is in a locker room with teenage girls, and people in locker rooms are naked sometimes. And the reason no one can do anything about it is that "he" says he is a "she", and so everything "she" is doing is perfectly normal to be doing in a locker room. The only question is which locker room "he/she" ought to be in when he's doing it.

 

[Sherkeu]

Every single time I use a locker room and take a shower after a workout, I "flash" everyone in the locker room. Everyone can see my stuff. That's why girls aren't allowed in my locker room and...

The main difference here, (and your ignorance is understandable) is that vaginas are not typically seen in a women's locker room. Women are much more modest..in the USA at least. Even in a sauna.

The occasional older German woman defies the rule, but no one cares because a foreigner gets a pass on these things.
You'll also have to exclude Korean spas, but school swim teams do not go to those places.

 

[Meadmaker]

The main difference here, (and your ignorance is understandable) is that vaginas are not typically seen in a women's locker room. Women are much more modest..in the USA at least. Even in a sauna.

Actually, the younger generation doesn't flash much in the men's locker room either. Some, but not much.

But I don't know how you manage to change for swimming without exposing yourself, unless there are private compartments. There aren't any in men's locker rooms. Maybe in women's rooms?

Story I have told many times, but here it is again: (In spoiler because it isn't really important.)

For many years, I worked out in a gym, and it was an older gym, and the crowd tended to be my age or older, which when I stopped going there was about 50 and up. All those years, I followed the same routine. At the end of the workout, throw clothes in locker, grab towel, throw towel over shoulder, walk to shower. That was normal.

I changed jobs. That gym was no longer convenient. New gym. Same routine, at first, but there were generally younger people. One day, I realized I was the only one who did that. I hadn't noticed before. Everyone else wrapped a towel around themselves as they walked to the shower. I figured I had better get with the program and started doing the same. It's a bloody nuisance. Now one hand has to keep the towel closed to hide the boy bits, which means you only have one hand free to hold shampoo, etc, and open the door. I have mostly taken to showering at home after the workout because it isn't as convenient as it used to be.

These shower habits started in high school. I am informed by youngsters today that no one ever does that in a high school locker room today. I am also informed that they do not shower because they never work out hard enough in gym class to actually sweat. I am also informed that childhood and adolescent obesity is much more common than in my day.

Damn kids these days.

But for any guy who makes use of the gym's shower facilities, there's still a point where you have to take off the undies and wrap the towel about, so everyone sees something briefly. The actual time of exposure varies depending on how anxious the person is to get things covered up.

Based on descriptions of other users, Colleen Brenna was the sort that was in no rush to get the towel in place.

 

[Rolfe]

Nobody can flash a vagina. It's an internal organ. You'd have to be doing some fairl old contortions even to flash a vulva, certainly more than the exterior of the exterior labia.

 

[zooterkin]

And if I'm honest, I'm also a bit miffed about a male-bodied person, with a male lived experience, getting Time's "Woman of the Year" award. Female people already don't get nearly enough credit, and having to share that meager spotlight with male people is grating.

“Trans women are women...”

Accept it 100%, or some will brand you a TERF.

 

[zooterkin]

...
I am informed by youngsters today that no one ever does that in a high school locker room today. I am also informed that they do not shower because they never work out hard enough in gym class to actually sweat. I am also informed that childhood and adolescent obesity is much more common than in my day.

I play (or did, until Covid-19) badminton; our club uses the sports hall of a local all-girls senior (11-18 year-olds) school, in the evening. When I first started playing there, I went looking for the showers, but discovered there were none; I wouldn’t have been surprised there were female-only ones, but there were none at all. I learnt later that there had been some, but they had been closed due to, I think, detecting Legionnaires’ disease in the water tanks, and they had not felt the need to replace them. My mind still boggles; they either don’t work up a sweat, as you say, or they go around sweaty; or perhaps games is always the last lesson of the day.