Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[theprestige]

Someone who does not sincerely identify as a woman should be denied entry. I admit that this could be tricky to nail down in practice.

And there you have it. Strip away all your meta discussion, all your rigamarole about sex perverts, all your insistence on using "TERF" as a shorthand for "bigot"...

... And it turns out you're on pretty much the same page as the rest of us.

I suppose someone could try to take advantage of this, as people can take advantage of anything.

I mean, there's really not a lot of daylight between you and Rolfe here.

Despite fearmongering, i see no evidence that these things actually happen frequently enough to justify blanket exclusion of trans women. And this example shows that the fear is not the disingenuous men that are often suggested, but ordinary trans women like Ms. Francis.

I'm not sure what example you're referring to, or who Ms Francis is, but nobody here is calling for blanket exclusion of trans women.

Most here - including the more "radical" feminists - are calling for the same thing you're calling for: Someone who does not sincerely identify as a woman should be denied entry.

And then debating how to go about nailing it down without excluding sincere transwomen.

One thing that makes it tricky is that there is a trans activist faction that insists that it's unacceptable to inquire about sincerity, or to ask for proof of sincerity. Or else they simply ignore the problem altogether, and change the subject.

It would probably be wise for laws to be changed such that trans people can have their official gender ID changed easily, in order to protect against the hypothetical gender grifter.

Probably, but what law would you write to establish the sincerity of the identification?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, mark me down as treating trans women as women.

Should I mark you down as one of the people avoiding public resources because you can't bear to share it with transwomen?

It would be very nice if you actually read and considered my position (as well as those of other people) before you start insinuating (or outright claiming) bigotry.

Let's try this: What exactly do you think my view and my position is? Have you gone through my posts in this thread and validated that your assumptions are correct? Can you find posts from me that clearly support the view you've assumed I hold?

 

[The Atheist]

I'll mark you down as being in support of adult males being allowed into the locker rooms of underage females.

Worked for Trump.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So they're not TERFs (trans-exclusionary) but MERFs (male-exclusionary) and the exclusion criterion is sex and not transgender status. Glad we cleared that up, I look forward to your usage of MERFs instead of TERFs henceforth.

Point of order here... I would say it's not even MERFs. Just MEPs. Male Exclusionary People, since a lot of them aren't feminists, and many of them are male. Some of them are even transwomen and transmen. And it's not globally exclusionary, it's really only exclusionary in some specific instances. So maybe "Male Exclusionary In Some Instances People" or "MEISIP" for short.

Not as much opportunity for use as a slur though, so I don't expect a lot of traction on that label.

 

[Meadmaker]

And there you have it. Strip away all your meta discussion, all your rigamarole about sex perverts, all your insistence on using "TERF" as a shorthand for "bigot"...

... And it turns out you're on pretty much the same page as the rest of us.

I don't think he is. He doesn't seem to be. I want sex-segregated facilities to remain sex-segregated, regardless of sincerity. I could compromise in some cases. I think his position is quite different.

I'm not sure what example you're referring to, or who Ms Francis is, but nobody here is calling for blanket exclusion of trans women.

Ms. Francis is Colleen Brenna. Francis was his legal last name, and at various time she referred to herself as Colleen Brenna or Colleen Brenna Francis.

 

[Agatha]

Will you all please try harder to talk about the thread topic, rather than each other.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[Sherkeu]

I don't think he is. He doesn't seem to be. I want sex-segregated facilities to remain sex-segregated, regardless of sincerity. I could compromise in some cases. I think his position is quite different.

Ms. Francis is Colleen Brenna. Francis was his legal last name, and at various time she referred to herself as Colleen Brenna or Colleen Brenna Francis.

I wish I had not googled this person. Yikes. Such a pervy sex-obsessed exhibitionist. Serious mental issues there.
And was a 45yo 'student' from that same ultra-liberal school that had that year of "Lord of the Flies" SJW hysteria in Oregon. No surprise.

Naked, in the school sauna, peering out of the clear glass at the elementary and high school girls with his legs spread open. omg. Wipe my brain!!!

(Is it more or less pervy if he had his wig and make-up on while naked in the hot sauna? I cannot decide but I also want that wiped from my imagination)

 

[Meadmaker]

I wish I had not googled this person. Yikes. Such a pervy sex-obsessed exhibitionist. Serious mental issues there.
And was a 45yo 'student' from that same ultra-liberal school that had that year of "Lord of the Flies" SJW hysteria in Oregon. No surprise.

Naked, in the school sauna, peering out of the clear glass at the elementary and high school girls with his legs spread open. omg. Wipe my brain!!!

(Is it more or less pervy if he had his wig and make-up on while naked in the hot sauna? I cannot decide but I also want that wiped from my imagination)

And, by law, "she" had a right to be there, and a right to refuse the changing area where the girls ended up using.

And apparently I'm a bigot for having a problem with that.

 

[Belz...]

Yes, mark me down as treating trans women as women.

ST, you replied to Cat talking about males and females, not men and women. Forgive my short memory because a lot's been said in this thread but I'm still not clear on whether the two are one and the same to you.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'd still like an honest, good-faith response to this question that I've asked several times.

I am very genuinely curious about something. I tried to get some clarity from Squeegee, but he never did answer. So I'm looking for your perspective, your personal view on this.

I have no objection to a person who hasn't yet surgically transitioned.
I have no objection to a person who would like to surgically transition but can't afford it.
I can even give some leeway to a person who doesn't want to surgically transition because it's awfully permanent and invasive and any surgery has risks.

But there are also people who have said that they don't want to transition at all, in any way. They are content to continue having a full beard, masculine appearance, and unquestionably masculine body... but who want to be considered women. They view themselves as being transwomen, and want everyone else to recognize them and treat them as they would any other woman.

What does the term "transwoman" even mean for a person who has no intention or desire to appear feminine in any way at all?

What does the term "woman" mean when it includes people who are clearly and incontrovertibly male in every way that any other human can tell?

Honestly, I'm getting tired of being completely ignored when I ask a legitimate and reasonable question that is directly relevant to the premise of the discussion.

 

[Sherkeu]

I'd still like an honest, good-faith response to this question that I've asked several times.

Honestly, I'm getting tired of being completely ignored when I ask a legitimate and reasonable question that is directly relevant to the premise of the discussion.

You know, when a trans woman says they always felt like a 'girl' or a 'woman', they are not talking about other natal males like themselves who also say they felt like a 'girl' or a 'woman'. And I do not deny that this is a real thing.

So whatever that definition of what they 'feel' like being, becoming, or 'identifying as' must be their definition of 'woman'.

They must be using some other criteria to define it, outside of themselves.
I havent seen anyone willing to specifically pin it down even though the vast majority of us know what it is.

Oddly enough, when many of them explain what they 'feel' they want to become (in the eyes of society), I, as a woman, do not relate to much of it!!

 

[The Atheist]

I wish I had not googled this person.

Haha!

Welcome to our Brave New World, where the rights of a ridiculously small, self-identifying group gets to make the rules for the great unwashed.

And, by law, "she" had a right to be there, and a right to refuse the changing area where the girls ended up using.

And apparently I'm a bigot for having a problem with that.

Only in the eyes of that tiny minority and an equally-tiny cohort of supporters.

Unfortunately, like most contentious subjects, those tiny minorities are the very squeaky wheel.

I'd still like an honest, good-faith response to this question that I've asked several times.

Honestly, I'm getting tired of being completely ignored when I ask a legitimate and reasonable question that is directly relevant to the premise of the discussion.

Sorry, I hadn't bothered answering since I figure we're largely on the same page, but here goes:

What does the term "transwoman" even mean for a person who has no intention or desire to appear feminine in any way at all?

It means they claim they believe they are a woman and everyone else has to respect that.

Yet, you can't claim to be a different race, as Rachel Dolezal discovered.

What does the term "woman" mean when it includes people who are clearly and incontrovertibly male in every way that any other human can tell?

It's sole remaining use is to ensure the term "cis-woman" has some value.

As long as the term "woman" is used to group together women who were born that way and other people who claim to be women, it demands biological women must fit into a niche created by those two tiny minorities mentioned above.

Remember - divide and conquer.

 

[Joe Random]

I'd still like an honest, good-faith response to this question that I've asked several times.



Honestly, I'm getting tired of being completely ignored when I ask a legitimate and reasonable question that is directly relevant to the premise of the discussion.

Don't feel bad. I'd asked something similar several times in the past from a standpoint of genuinely wanting to understand how people were defining things and never received a reply either. I'd laid it out in the 'man gives birth' thread something like this :

"I'm heterosexual. I get sexually aroused by members of the opposite sex. If I were to feel that same arousal by members of my sex then I'd be homosexual. "

"I'm a transman (who just gave birth) because I feel <x>. If I were to instead feel <y> then I'd be a cis-woman. "

Now define x and y as they apply to yourself personally. And x is not allowed to be circular (e.g. no x="I am a man").

 

[p0lka]

I'd still like an honest, good-faith response to this question that I've asked several times.

...I am very genuinely curious about something. I tried to get some clarity from Squeegee, but he never did answer. So I'm looking for your perspective, your personal view on this.

I have no objection to a person who hasn't yet surgically transitioned.
I have no objection to a person who would like to surgically transition but can't afford it.
I can even give some leeway to a person who doesn't want to surgically transition because it's awfully permanent and invasive and any surgery has risks.

But there are also people who have said that they don't want to transition at all, in any way. They are content to continue having a full beard, masculine appearance, and unquestionably masculine body... but who want to be considered women. They view themselves as being transwomen, and want everyone else to recognize them and treat them as they would any other woman.

What does the term "transwoman" even mean for a person who has no intention or desire to appear feminine in any way at all?

What does the term "woman" mean when it includes people who are clearly and incontrovertibly male in every way that any other human can tell?

Honestly, I'm getting tired of being completely ignored when I ask a legitimate and reasonable question that is directly relevant to the premise of the discussion.

If a female friend that wanted to be treated as a male whilst still having boobs asked you for advice, what would your advice be?

edit: i'm of the opinion that what's important is how you feel on the inside, not how you can be bothered to express it on the outside.

 

[d4m10n]

What does the term "transwoman" even mean for a person who has no intention or desire to appear feminine in any way at all?

i'm of the opinion that what's important is how you feel on the inside, not how you can be bothered to express it on the outside.

I can tell that other people experience sadness or joy in a way that is similar to my own experience because of the facial expressions they make, the actions they take (e.g. laughing, crying), and—to a lesser extent—the words they say. I'm much less clear on what it means to feel like a man, barring a handful of unprintably explicit exceptions involving distinctly manly bits.

In fact, I was raised to believe that men and women have the same basic emotional palettes, but that they are generally inculturated with different ideas about which ones to express and suppress. If there is indeed an feeling of manliness, or womanliness, I suspect it's largely the result of this training.

(None of this is to say that sex-related body dysphoria isn't real, of course, but the person in EC's hypothetical doesn't seem to have it.)

 

[Earthborn]

What does the term "transwoman" even mean for a person who has no intention or desire to appear feminine in any way at all?

Someone who has no intention or desire to appear feminine in any way is not a transwoman.

What does the term "woman" mean when it includes people who are clearly and incontrovertibly male in every way that any other human can tell?

A "woman" is any person who acts according to their culture's female gender role or is otherwise recognised by their society as being a "woman".

Hope that clears things up.

But there are also people who have said that they don't want to transition at all, in any way. They are content to continue having a full beard, masculine appearance, and unquestionably masculine body... but who want to be considered women. They view themselves as being transwomen, and want everyone else to recognize them and treat them as they would any other woman.

I think I need to see some examples. I think it is likely the individuals in question likely do have an "intention or desire to appear feminine in any way" but have for some reason not acted on it.

 

[caveman1917]

A "woman" is any person who acts according to their culture's female gender role or is otherwise recognised by their society as being a "woman".

Hope that clears things up.

You can't use a word in its own definition, that makes the definition circular.

 

[d4m10n]

A "woman" is any person who acts according to their culture's female gender role or is otherwise recognised by their society as being a "woman".

How about anyone who has accepted the social expectations which typically accompany the feminine gender role, assigned to them either by society or as a matter of personal choice?

 

[Earthborn]

You can't use a word in its own definition, that makes the definition circular.

I think you'll find that in the social sciences, a lot of "definitions" are essentially circular. That happens if a rigorous definition is impossible, or any attempt at a rigorous definiton will lead to many examples that most people would agree belong to a specific category to be excluded, or many examples that most people would agree do not belong to a specific category to be included.

There is a reason the social sciences are not included in the "exact sciences".

 

[Earthborn]

How about anyone who has accepted the social expectations which typically accompany the feminine gender role, assigned to them either by society or as a matter of personal choice?

I would say that person "acts according to their culture's female gender role or is otherwise recognised by their society as being a 'woman'."