Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[lomiller]

Okay.

Now... why can't I condemn the actions of people setting fire to buildings that have other people trapped inside of them too?

How can people be “trapped” inside these buildings? There has been ample opportunity for anyone who didn’t want to be there to remove themselves. The only credible reason for those people being there is that they view themselves as combatants in the battle to supress the protests.

That does bring up the prospect of the protestors also being combatants who willingly put themselves in danger. To that I say which side do you want to be on, the authoritarian government demanding obedience from the population of the population rising up and demanding freedom justice from an authoritarian regime?

In any free county it MUST be the police and government that are held to the higher standard. The alternative is to give government forces free reign to violently supress anyone who opposes them.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Okay.

Now... why can't I condemn the actions of people setting fire to buildings that have other people trapped inside of them too?

The building is made of concrete. There was no danger from this little debris fire except to those stoking it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

'Big riot' in Seattle yesterday. 18 people arrested. News media shows up this morning and can't find any damage.

Meanwhile Trump continues his fear-mongering-by-gaslight campaign claiming he'll bring "law and order" to these cities.

Biden better counter this BS. Learn from Clinton's failure.

 

[Shadowdweller]

How can people be “trapped” inside these buildings? There has been ample opportunity for anyone who didn’t want to be there to remove themselves. The only credible reason for those people being there is that they view themselves as combatants in the battle to supress the protests.

The building is made of concrete. There was no danger from this little debris fire except to those stoking it.

Yeah, it's totally not like these buildings are covered in flammable plywood protective paneling or anything Or could possibly have potentially flammable rugs, wood composite furnishings, paper-lined drywall, or stacks of paper inside. And those people! You know, like night watch-people, custodial staff....or say employees of an active police precinct. They should totally be expected to abandon their jobs during this time of economic plenty.

And of course the protestors would never do anything like start fires inside (starting at around 0:28) buildings either.

 

[Mumbles]

How can people be “trapped” inside these buildings? There has been ample opportunity for anyone who didn’t want to be there to remove themselves. The only credible reason for those people being there is that they view themselves as combatants in the battle to supress the protests.

That does bring up the prospect of the protestors also being combatants who willingly put themselves in danger. To that I say which side do you want to be on, the authoritarian government demanding obedience from the population of the population rising up and demanding freedom justice from an authoritarian regime?

In any free county it MUST be the police and government that are held to the higher standard. The alternative is to give government forces free reign to violently supress anyone who opposes them.

More to the point, these seem to be minor trash fires. While I don't approve of thi sort of thing, how much damage can a fire that doesn't even set off the sprinkler system that the federal building absolutely should have?

 

[Distracted1]

The building is made of concrete. There was no danger from this little debris fire except to those stoking it.

Harmless. Like a rubber bullet.

 

[portlandatheist]

How can people be “trapped” inside these buildings? There has been ample opportunity for anyone who didn’t want to be there to remove themselves. The only credible reason for those people being there is that they view themselves as combatants in the battle to supress the protests.

That does bring up the prospect of the protestors also being combatants who willingly put themselves in danger. To that I say which side do you want to be on, the authoritarian government demanding obedience from the population of the population rising up and demanding freedom justice from an authoritarian regime?

In any free county it MUST be the police and government that are held to the higher standard. The alternative is to give government forces free reign to violently supress anyone who opposes them.

The detainees held there cannot simply leave whenever they want to.
ETA:
https://www.mcso.us/site/corr_facilities.php

The Multnomah County Detention Center (MCDC) is a maximum security facility located in downtown Portland. It opened in 1983, occupies a portion of the Justice Center building, and is a direct-supervision layout with each housing area having a staffed deputy station. MCDC serves as the initial booking facility for all arrestees within Multnomah County, houses adults in custody for the County, as well as state and federal inmates involved in court matters.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

How can people be “trapped” inside these buildings? There has been ample opportunity for anyone who didn’t want to be there to remove themselves. The only credible reason for those people being there is that they view themselves as combatants in the battle to supress the protests.



That does bring up the prospect of the protestors also being combatants who willingly put themselves in danger. To that I say which side do you want to be on, the authoritarian government demanding obedience from the population of the population rising up and demanding freedom justice from an authoritarian regime?



In any free county it MUST be the police and government that are held to the higher standard. The alternative is to give government forces free reign to violently supress anyone who opposes them.

How quickly the voice purporting to stand for good and freedom has managed to declare an out-group which doesn't deserve a deliberative process of justice.

 

[Puppycow]

This is a few days old news now, but the Oregon state police who were sent in to support the local police have pulled out because the local prosecutor refuses to do his job:

State police pull troopers out of Portland protest coverage, return them to regular assignments

Oregon State Police on Thursday pulled out the approximately 100 troopers helping both federal officers and Portland police in responding to nightly protests in the city that have often ended in confrontations with demonstrators and arrests.

State police committed to two weeks “and that two weeks ended today,” said spokesman Capt. Timothy R. Fox.

“We’re in a county that’s not going to prosecute this criminal behavior,” Fox added.

It was a pointed reference to Tuesday’s announcement by new Multnomah County District Attorney Mike Schmidt that his office won’t pursue many of the charges against demonstrators, including disorderly conduct, interfering with a police officer and even riot in some circumstances.

 

[uke2se]

This is a few days old news now, but the Oregon state police who were sent in to support the local police have pulled out because the local prosecutor refuses to do his job:

State police pull troopers out of Portland protest coverage, return them to regular assignments

Sounds like he's doing his job to me, if that Captain is correct about his actions. Maybe things will calm down with a reduced police presence.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Still no answer from the police apologists to a very direct question.

Setting aside good protesters vs bad protesters, or good cops vs bad cops, or any larger ideological or political project, just to ask a purely practical question:

What should the PPB actually do if the goal is to restore order in Portland? They've used all the finest crowd control weapons available to modern cops. Have they left anything in reserve short of lethal violence? They regularly declare riots and beat or arrest people to clear the streets, and yet the people return, night after night for over 70 days. Protesters in gas masks with shields forming phalanxes is the result.

Does anyone honestly think increased force from the PPB will bring about an end to these protests? What would it work now when a very strong presence has not worked for months? What room do they have left to escalate, short of lethal violence or mass arrests, which are certainly unconstitutional.

Perhaps it's time to try any other strategy. This one is clearly a failure.

It seems increasingly obvious that the protests and riots end only when the cops decide to deescalate.

 

[lomiller]

How quickly the voice purporting to stand for good and freedom has managed to declare an out-group which doesn't deserve a deliberative process of justice.

The protests were triggered by the breakdown of the deliberative processes of justice. When justice breaks down and the agents of the government start demanding obedience from the people they are supposed to server, I'm more than open to a little bit of revolution. I've never claimed to be a pacifist.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

The building is made of concrete. There was no danger from this little debris fire except to those stoking it.

You've never heard of "smoke inhalation"??? And you don't know that big fires almost always begin as little fires???

 

[Delphic Oracle]

The protests were triggered by the breakdown of the deliberative processes of justice. When justice breaks down and the agents of the government start demanding obedience from the people they are supposed to server, I'm more than open to a little bit of revolution. I've never claimed to be a pacifist.

As long as everyone agrees their side is justified in suspending the very values they object to the other side suspending, I'm sure the values everyone is paying lip service to will survive just fine...

 

[uke2se]

As long as everyone agrees their side is justified in suspending the very values they object to the other side suspending, I'm sure the values everyone is paying lip service to will survive just fine...

What values are the protesters suspending?

 

[Shadowdweller]

Here's another "harmless little trash fire". For you clueless masses who feel that you have a right to judge the severity of damage in a city where you don't reside - that's the Multnomah Building. The Multnomah Building houses the county commission, which does things like enforce building codes, make sure schools get (local) funding, keeps homeless shelters open, handles the city's Covid response team...in addition to (the administrative side of) the local court system, which are all merely tools of police brutality, yes?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I will take the lack of response as a tacit acknowledgement that there really isn't any hope of the PPB successfully quelling the ongoing unrest using their current tactics.

Is there any goal in the continued deployment of riot cops other than seeing suffering inflicted on the disorderly protesters?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I will take the lack of response as a tacit acknowledgement that there really isn't any hope of the PPB successfully quelling the ongoing unrest using their current tactics.

Is there any goal in the continued deployment of riot cops other than seeing suffering inflicted on the disorderly protesters?

I think your assumption is faulty. I don't think any response exists that will quell this unrest. They didn't stop having nightly outbreaks of vandalism and violence during the period between when the police stopped responding and the feds stepped in, and they haven't stopped once the feds have agreed to withdraw. They seem to have gotten worse, with regular acts of arson added to the list.

What do you think an "appropriate" response is? Just let the anarchists do whatever they want, and if they hurt people or damage property, oh well? Collateral damage in the fight for... what exactly are the nightly rioters fighting for anyway? Because I genuinely don't think they're fighting for the same things that the daily protesters are after.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think your assumption is faulty. I don't think any response exists that will quell this unrest. They didn't stop having nightly outbreaks of vandalism and violence during the period between when the police stopped responding and the feds stepped in, and they haven't stopped once the feds have agreed to withdraw. They seem to have gotten worse, with regular acts of arson added to the list.

What do you think an "appropriate" response is? Just let the anarchists do whatever they want, and if they hurt people or damage property, oh well? Collateral damage in the fight for... what exactly are the nightly rioters fighting for anyway? Because I genuinely don't think they're fighting for the same things that the daily protesters are after.

I agree with the hilited portion to some extent. At this point, people on the street are fighting the cops, specifically the feds (when they were there) and the PPB, as a direct response to the unhinged violence that was used. The brutality wielded by the police has made this national protest movement hyper-local for the people of Portland.

I think it's very likely that de-escalation on the parts of the cops would radically reduce the violence in these protests. They should stop shooting tear gas, rubber bullets, and pepper balls at once, recognize the rights of the people to assemble, and only target individuals for arrest that are engaged in serious crimes. It is entirely possible for the PPB to arrest dangerous individuals (arsonists, whatever) without using indiscriminate violence to clear the streets.

A sincere acknowledgement by the city of the wrongs done by the PPB and a promise to not allow such atrocities to happen again would go a long way, but that would require a mayor interested in reigning in the police. It would also require individual bad actors to be indicted, or at the very least, fired from the PD.

Again, the scary anarchists are destroying property and committing violence already, despite the heavy police response. The current strategy is a failure.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I agree with the hilited portion to some extent. At this point, people on the street are fighting the cops, specifically the feds (when they were there) and the PPB, as a direct response to the unhinged violence that was used. The brutality wielded by the police has made this national protest movement hyper-local for the people of Portland.

I think it's very likely that de-escalation on the parts of the cops would radically reduce the violence in these protests. They should stop shooting tear gas, rubber bullets, and pepper balls at once, recognize the rights of the people to assemble, and only target individuals for arrest that are engaged in serious crimes. It is entirely possible for the PPB to arrest dangerous individuals (arsonists, whatever) without using indiscriminate violence to clear the streets.
A sincere acknowledgement by the city of the wrongs done by the PPB and a promise to not allow such atrocities to happen again would go a long way, but that would require a mayor interested in reigning in the police. It would also require individual bad actors to be indicted, or at the very least, fired from the PD.

Again, the scary anarchists are destroying property and committing violence already, despite the heavy police response. The current strategy is a failure.

The DID stop using LTL approaches quite a while back, and the night-time violence did not stop.

They HAVE acknowledged the right of people to assemble, they haven't been acting against the day-time protesters at all.

And the crowds are PROTECTING The dangerous elements at night, and SHELTERING them from being arrested.

This isn't a lone crazy person out there causing problems. It's a large group of people assembling every night and committing crimes unabated.

I get your anger at the police, I really do. What I don't get is your complete disregard for every other citizen put at risk by the actions of these criminals every night since this began. What I don't get is your complete nonchalance about collateral damage. You're not there, you're not experiencing it... and you're perfectly content to let it happen with no care or consideration for any of the innocent people involved.