• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nevertheless people feeling uncomfortable should not be dismissed. I have heard a number of men declaring quite vehemently that the idea of a woman entering the gents' while they are using the urinal fills them with horror.

I can imagine such a scenario:

Belz...: Holy smokes! I think you've taken a wrong turn, ma'am.
Woman
: Sorry all the stalls are taken in the women's room and I really need to go!
Belz...: Fine, knock yourself out.
Woman: (sheepishly walks buy, looking away)
 
I can imagine such a scenario:

Belz...: Holy smokes! I think you've taken a wrong turn, ma'am.
Woman
: Sorry all the stalls are taken in the women's room and I really need to go!
Belz...: Fine, knock yourself out.
Woman: (sheepishly walks buy, looking away)


It happens. I remember a tour guide urging the women to get in there and use the gents or we were all going to miss some connection or other. Some of the men looked a bit embarrassed. But that's not really what we're talking about, is it?
 
It happens. I remember a tour guide urging the women to get in there and use the gents or we were all going to miss some connection or other. Some of the men looked a bit embarrassed. But that's not really what we're talking about, is it?

Nope. We're not talking about the same kind of feeling at all.
 
Perhaps trans activists should focus more on insisting that trans men use men's spaces, including communal locker rooms and prisons, even when they have not medically transitioned. If they focused more on that, then they might hear more objection to it.

Since biology doesn't matter, only identity, a prisoner with female appearance and anatomy who identifies as a man belongs in the men's prison, right?
 
Pay no attention to the constant theme of sex perverts and rapists when discussing trans issues, it's just a coincidence and certainly not the sign the clear animus of "gender critical" feminism.

The constant theme of sex perverts and rapists is certainly not coincidence. The reason for the existence of sex segregated spaces is to protect people from sex perverts and rapists, especially protecting female people from male sex perverts and rapists.


It's not that simple. There's a whole raft of social conventions that exist to support those efforts, but at the core, that's what it's all about, so of course the themes of sex perverts and rapists will be present in any such discussion. Some of it will be the general feeling of "modesty", but that's related.
 
Perhaps trans activists should focus more on insisting that trans men use men's spaces, including communal locker rooms and prisons, even when they have not medically transitioned. If they focused more on that, then they might hear more objection to it.

Since biology doesn't matter, only identity, a prisoner with female appearance and anatomy who identifies as a man belongs in the men's prison, right?

I've followed the case of Alec McKinney, one of the shooters at the STEM school in Colorado. The person killed in that shooting was a Robotics team member, so it got a lot of press in Robotics circles. Alec is a female bodied young transman, and was recently sentenced to life in prison, which I believe will be served in a male facility.

What could go wrong?
 
Well, they are radical feminists after all, centering and prioritizing the needs of women like themselves.

To the extent that feminists take an interest in men's spaces at all, it's b/c they'd rather have access thereto.

Plenty of feminists have no trouble at all treating trans women as women. That's the distinction. TERFs, as far as I can tell, are a vocal minority of the feminist population.
 
And yet all of their efforts seem to be directed towards excluding trans women. The reasoning may be due to their view that denies the legitimacy of all transgender identity, but the effect is almost entirely focused on transwomen.

I'm not sure you read Rolfe's post. Or perhaps you didn't follow the intent. She said "Not because some of them are trans, but because all of them are male." Yes, it seeks to exclude tanswomen. Not because they are trans, but because they are males. It's not "trans-exclusionary", it's male-exclusionary.
 
I'm not sure you read Rolfe's post. Or perhaps you didn't follow the intent. She said "Not because some of them are trans, but because all of them are male." Yes, it seeks to exclude tanswomen. Not because they are trans, but because they are males. It's not "trans-exclusionary", it's male-exclusionary.

Kind of like how banning same sex marriage was not discriminating against homosexuality it was against anyone who wanted to marry someone of the same sex.
 
I've followed the case of Alec McKinney, one of the shooters at the STEM school in Colorado. The person killed in that shooting was a Robotics team member, so it got a lot of press in Robotics circles. Alec is a female bodied young transman, and was recently sentenced to life in prison, which I believe will be served in a male facility.

What could go wrong?

That's a horrible idea.
 
Kind of like how banning same sex marriage was not discriminating against homosexuality it was against anyone who wanted to marry someone of the same sex.

The question becomes, should we be catering towards any sincerely held anti-trans animus in these government run shelters?

I'm sure there were people during the gay panics that honestly felt it was unsafe for their children to have gay teachers or gay sport coaches, given the widely held belief that gay men were all sex perverts and pedophiles.

Should society have catered to that sincerely held animus in the name of perceived safety? The answer seems obvious to me.

I have no reason to doubt the sincerity that some women might have when they express anti-trans opinions, though I do doubt that these sentiments are more common than not. I just don't see the existence of sincere anti-trans animus as sufficient reason to discriminate against trans-women as a category.

I see no downside to making accommodations towards trans-bigoted women that might feel unsafe, so long as those accommodations don't interfere on the ability of trans-women to access these facilities. Obviously, blanket exclusion of trans-women is a non-starter.
 
Is that a standard you apply in other circumstances?
I try to, yes.

Would you be so equivocating if a flat earther was trying to elide their ideological roots by refusing categorization?

What I am asking for is the opposite of equivocation. If someone says they believe the earth is flat, we can have a conversation about what they believe without ever bringing up categories.

Same thing here. You don't need to talk about the TERF category to talk about whatever specific ideas or issues you want to talk about in that category. Since debating the category definition is tangential anyway, why don't you just talk about the specific items you have in mind?

Why all these pointlesss digressions?
 
I try to, yes.



What I am asking for is the opposite of equivocation. If someone says they believe the earth is flat, we can have a conversation about what they believe without ever bringing up categories.

Same thing here. You don't need to talk about the TERF category to talk about whatever specific ideas or issues you want to talk about in that category. Since debating the category definition is tangential anyway, why don't you just talk about the specific items you have in mind?

Why all these pointlesss digressions?

Meta discussions are sometimes instructive. How many times are you willing to have the same tedious debate about the same flat earther ideas, just repackaged under new names and under new terms?

It strikes me that TERF ideology is trying to rebrand itself to avoid its rightly earned negative reputation. Much like the creationists tried to repackage their brand of evangelical "science" in order to evade court decisions and bad PR, or how white supremacists tried to market themselves to today's youth as the "alt right", TERFs are scrambling to repackage the same old ideas in order to evade losing battles both in the courts and the public opinion sphere.

As with many bigoted causes, the constant re-branding or resistance to categorization is an attempt to avoid rightly earned stigma.
 
Last edited:
Plenty of feminists have no trouble at all treating trans women as women. That's the distinction. TERFs, as far as I can tell, are a vocal minority of the feminist population.
I'd be fascinated to see the breakdown on specific questions, e.g. Should Seani use the ladies room?
 
To me, a lot of this discussion of TERF has devolved into the oh so common forum activity of determining whether or not someone actually said something. Here's my take on the whole thing.

When discussing the topic of transgenders, their identity, and their place in society, you can engage with arguments, or you can call people names. I prefer the former.

The question becomes, should we be catering towards any sincerely held anti-trans animus in these government run shelters?

I'm sure there were people during the gay panics that honestly felt it was unsafe for their children to have gay teachers or gay sport coaches, given the widely held belief that gay men were all sex perverts and pedophiles.

Should society have catered to that sincerely held animus in the name of perceived safety? The answer seems obvious to me.

I have no reason to doubt the sincerity that some women might have when they express anti-trans opinions, though I do doubt that these sentiments are more common than not. I just don't see the existence of sincere anti-trans animus as sufficient reason to discriminate against trans-women as a category.

I see no downside to making accommodations towards trans-bigoted women that might feel unsafe, so long as those accommodations don't interfere on the ability of trans-women to access these facilities. Obviously, blanket exclusion of trans-women is a non-starter.

In an attempt to steer you toward the former option (from my post quoted above), I would like to understand how you would answer a question.

I am going to reference a nearly 10 year old case, but the circumstances have occurred again. There was a swimming facility at a community college in Washington. The facilities were accessible to students at the community college, and they were also used as the practice facility for a high school girls' swim team. There were men's and women's locker rooms, and there was also a smaller, rarely used facility where people could change. (I believe it was also a locker room. i.e. it had the usual lockers, showers, toilets, etc. often found in a locker room, but I don't know why it existed or its usual purpose. I know it was small, but I don't know how small.)

One of the students at the school was a 40ish transwoman. (I don't know the exact age) who went by the name Colleen Brenna. (The legal name of the transwoman at the time was the male name that the transwoman had been given at birth.) At the time, Colleen Brenna had not taken any hormone treatments or any other steps toward physical transition. Ms. Brenna was also a self-identified lesbian. Ms. Brenna wore stereotypically female clothing in public.

Ms. Brenna frequently used the women's locker room at the same time as the high school swim team, and she made no effort to conceal any part of her anatomy (that means penis and scrotum for you not getting the sense of the sense of this.) The girls on the swim team expressed discomfort at changing in the presence of Ms. Brenna. Ms. Brenna was offered the use of the smaller facility, but she refused. The girls and their parents complained, but the facility ownership said that Ms. Brenna had the right to use the women's locker room. Eventually, the girls' swim team used the smaller facility, but they couldn't all fit at once, so that cut into some of their practice t me.

Would you describe the girls on the team, and/or the parents of the girls on the team who supported their objections to changing in the presence of the transwoman, as "trans-bigoted"?
 
Last edited:
snipped for brevity

Would you describe the girls on the team, and/or the parents of the girls on the team who supported their objections to changing in the presence of the transwoman, as "trans-bigoted"?

Assuming there was no deliberately lewd or harassing behavior on the part of Ms. Francis, I see no reason why she should not be able to use the women's facilities. Whether or not the reaction of the people calling the police was rooted in bigotry or ignorance is unclear to me.

I am willing to extend the benefit of the doubt given that it is only recently the existence and legal acceptance of trans people is becoming common knowledge.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom