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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

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I think that's the point. If someone prefers that I call him "he" when I know he would prefer "she", then I'm being disrespectful.

And, sometimes I am. If that Yaniv guy shows up, I'm calling him he, because I have no respect for him. That bearded GLT bloke with no intention to change to look more female? If he were actually participating in this conversation, I might switch to she. It would depend on whether I decided I respected......her.

Some would say that calling any transwoman "he" is disrespectful to all transwomen, even the ones I'm willing to call "she". In some sense they are right. I can live with that.


I generally address my trans friends as "you". Saves any confusion.

There's also this.

Pronouns are rohypnol

I'm not a fan of compelled speech. Especially when the same people doing the compelling insist on using terminology that their opponents strongly object to, while insisting there's no disrespect, it's merely a neutral descriptive term.
 
I generally address my trans friends as "you". Saves any confusion.

There's also this.

Pronouns are rohypnol

I'm not a fan of compelled speech. Especially when the same people doing the compelling insist on using terminology that their opponents strongly object to, while insisting there's no disrespect, it's merely a neutral descriptive term.

"They dull your defences. They change your inhibitions. They’re meant to. You’ve had a lifetime’s experience learning to be alert to ‘him’ and relax to ‘her’. For good reason. This instinctive response keeps you safe. It’s not even a conscious thing. It’s like your hairs standing on end. Your subconscious brain is helping you not get eaten by the sabre tooth tiger that your eyes haven’t noticed yet."

That's the final paragraph of the article. That's how far you have to read, to get to the the argument.

Ironically, most of the rest of the article is a bunch of talk about "experiments" that aren't really experimental in the scientific sense. So one could by the same token argue that sciency-sounding language is rohypnol. It dulls your defenses. You've had a lifetime's experience learning to trust science more than feelings. The author uses "experiment" as a verbal drug to cloud your perception and distract you from the fact that she's not actually using science to support her argument.

(To be fair, she does reference one or two actual scientific experiments. But not in a scientifically sound argument.)
 
I generally address my trans friends as "you". Saves any confusion.

There's also this.

Pronouns are rohypnol

I'm not a fan of compelled speech. Especially when the same people doing the compelling insist on using terminology that their opponents strongly object to, while insisting there's no disrespect, it's merely a neutral descriptive term.

I especially hate "they". The person may or may not be one sex or gender or whatever, but I'm fairly confident there's only one of them.

And some of you already see what I did there. Yes, "they" is and has been for some time often substituted for a gender neutral noun. I remember being corrected in high school grammar class when writing, "Everyone has their book." Correct grammar is, or at least was, "Everyone has his book." I'm not sure if the Grammar Police have changed that one. However, "They went to the store", when referring to one person, is totally awkward.
 
It's an interesting point. Trying to use language in a way that doesn't come naturally is inhibiting and distracting. It's a strain. All the more so when there are people waiting to come down on you like a ton of bricks if you slip up. Plus the guilt trip they're trying to lay on you. ("If you refer to a male person who isn't present as he, you're responsible for his suicide" and similar nonsensical propositions.)

Sod that. I'm not playing.


ETA: Yes, the informal use of "they" in very specific singular situations is quite longstanding. However these situations are ones where there's no doubt about the meaning (for example a single person seen from so far away that you can't tell the sex). Using "they" when he or she is expected, and when the person's sex is known, is just a silly affectation.

I read something which I took for a clever spoof, but others said it was serious, ostensibly written by a transwoman, intimating his intention to bring his kitten up gender-neutral. He constantly referred to the kitten as they, and people kept saying, I thought you had only one kitten?

For goodness sake, was he entirely unaware of the word "it"? That would be insulting if used for a human being (unless you're Bel in the Miles Vorkosigan books), but it's commonly used for an animal whose sex you don't know. A little aside. Over 30 years ago I was commissioned to write a cat care book for the Christmas coffee-table book market. I referred to the hypothetical pets in the book as "he", on the same principle as Meadmaker's example. When I got the edited manuscript back the editor had changed every single he to it. I threw a total strop. Nobody calls their pet it. This will put off the potential buyers, it's impersonal and unnatural. In fact if you're going to do it, you can take my name off the book. She compromised by using "he" and "she" alternately, which seemed a bit silly but I let it go.

Conversely I was speaking to a French tourist once who told me that her French teacher had told her class that in English the word "it" was always used for animals. I had to spend some time thinking about it, before explaining that this was common usage for an animal you had or felt no relationship with, but that he or she was de rigeur for animals you were in some sort of relationship with. I explained that as a vet, doing consultations, one very important thing to remember was to check the sex of the pet before the owner enters the consulting room, to be sure to say he or she correctly. And if that's not possible for some reason then at a very early stage in the examination you make sure to find out. It's actually quite easy just to have a quick peek and say to the owner as one does so, "are we a boy or a girl?" (I note that Jori's vaccination certificate, issued to his breeder when he was a baby kitten, has "boy" scribbled on the front of it.) Nobody ever refers to a pet animal as it, and even farm animals are generally called he or she if you know. Although I have seen farm animal case reports that veered from he to it and back again in the course of a couple of paragraps. (A couple of years ago on a rideout I was in conversation with another rider who had a very nice horse who just looked girlish. I referred to the animal as "she" a couple of times and the owner laughed and said "did you just misgender my horse?" She apparently got this all the time, everyone always guessed wrong.)

Another related point. I've been reading up on some linguistics topics recently, and one thing that fascinated me was the research on the order in which people learn specific grammatical points in a new language. Apparently the third person singular is always the last to come, and some fluent speakers who use their new language daily for many years still get it wrong. ( I think this must be in cases where the usage isn't the same as the person's native language, because I don't have a problem with il or elle, er or sie, or e or i.) I then heard an account from a woman whose mother was, I think, Hungarian. In that language the third person singular is not gendered, any more than the second person is gendered in English. Although the mother had married an Englishman and lived all her adult life in England and was completely fluent, she regularly called her daughter he or her son she.

Language usage is a very deeply learned thing, and it seems that the third person singular is a particularly knotty one to change. There's a lot going on here, and just saying airily "do it to be kind" (to Jonathan Yaviv? I don't think so) is not particularly helpful.
 
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I especially hate "they". The person may or may not be one sex or gender or whatever, but I'm fairly confident there's only one of them.

And some of you already see what I did there. Yes, "they" is and has been for some time often substituted for a gender neutral noun. I remember being corrected in high school grammar class when writing, "Everyone has their book." Correct grammar is, or at least was, "Everyone has his book." I'm not sure if the Grammar Police have changed that one. However, "They went to the store", when referring to one person, is totally awkward.

Who are the Grammar Police?
 
Who are the Grammar Police?

I'm not sure if there is one set of official "Grammar Police".


Somewhere, there are people who write books that describe what is proper grammar and what is not. This information then goes into textbooks. Periodically, the organizations that do this sort of thing change their mind about what is and isn't proper grammar. I imagine they have meetings and conferences about contentious issues, but I really don't know the nuts and bolts about how they decide what the next set of textbooks will say.
 
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To me, a lot of this discussion of TERF has devolved into the oh so common forum activity of determining whether or not someone actually said something. Here's my take on the whole thing.

When discussing the topic of transgenders, their identity, and their place in society, you can engage with arguments, or you can call people names. I prefer the former.
 
I find the whole hyperbole thing quite funny now.

Personally am not particularly feminist or not as a bloke. But disagree females should have to open up their doors to trans chicks in shelters if it makes it harder than it already is. This makes me a terf apparently.

I get bored with people slagging off Trump for every tiny thing. Apparently this makes me a rep scum even though I can't vote and don't actually care, short of being annoyed having to trawl through post after post of it.

Thankfully I am not American as if you vote Republican you now seem to be a racist nazi.
 
Certain posters like to throw in the comment, "It's very telling how everybody forgets about transmen." That's what's happening now.

The position being referred to as gender critical isn't trans exclusionary at all. It's male exclusionary. It seeks to exclude males from female single-sex spaces, as I might remind posters has been the default position for a very long time. All males. Not because some of them are trans, but because all of them are male.

It does not exclude females who identify as trans. It is therefore not trans-exclusionary.

And yet all of their efforts seem to be directed towards excluding trans women. The reasoning may be due to their view that denies the legitimacy of all transgender identity, but the effect is almost entirely focused on transwomen.
 
I generally address my trans friends as "you". Saves any confusion.

There's also this.

Pronouns are rohypnol

I'm not a fan of compelled speech. Especially when the same people doing the compelling insist on using terminology that their opponents strongly object to, while insisting there's no disrespect, it's merely a neutral descriptive term.

Ahh yes, the "not a TERF" site insisting that anything short of deliberately misgendering trans people is like the date-rape drug. What a terrible cludgy metaphor, but if serves its purpose.

Pay no attention to the constant theme of sex perverts and rapists when discussing trans issues, it's just a coincidence and certainly not the sign the clear animus of "gender critical" feminism.
 
Only if everyone agrees on the shorthand. You substituting one shorthand for another doesn't resolve the problem at all, for me. I'd much rather you dispense with the shorthand, and use plain terms to convey your plain meaning.

Is that a standard you apply in other circumstances? Would you be so equivocating if a flat earther was trying to elide their ideological roots by refusing categorization?
 
And yet all of their efforts seem to be directed towards excluding trans women.

Some of our female posters are (for mysterious and ineffable reasons) primarily concerned with spaces hitherto set aside for females, rather than spaces set aside for males.
 
And yet all of their efforts seem to be directed towards excluding trans women. The reasoning may be due to their view that denies the legitimacy of all transgender identity, but the effect is almost entirely focused on transwomen.

This post seems to presume that there should be some symmetry between transmen and transwomen, and between men and women.

But it's not symmetric. The biology of the sexes is asymmetric. One of the consequences of this asymmetry is that biological females can be physically threatened by biological males in a way that biological males are not threatened by biological females.

If a transman who had not physically transitioned in any way was strolling around naked in my locker room, it would make me uncomfortable, for social reasons. It would not, however, make me feel physically vulnerable. This is a different experience, and it's why the debate about things like locker rooms and restrooms is focused on transwomen and not transmen.
 
Nevertheless people feeling uncomfortable should not be dismissed. I have heard a number of men declaring quite vehemently that the idea of a woman entering the gents' while they are using the urinal fills them with horror.
 
Some of our female posters are (for mysterious and ineffable reasons) primarily concerned with spaces hitherto set aside for females, rather than spaces set aside for males.

Sure, it makes sense.

I was refuting someone's point about how people are exclusionist vs. trans denialists. In practice, what the TERFs really care about is "women only" space, so trans denialism ends up, in practical impact, just looking like trans-women exclusion.
 
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