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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

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Rolfe said:
But these people are trans. That's the point. They say they're trans so they are trans. There is no other criterion. And no, they are never asked to leave. That would be transphobic.

The woman either leaves, or is subjected to a scolding for being transphobic, and then leaves.
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The problem is their behavior, not them being trans. Would it be more acceptable if these women were cis, butch, lesbians doing the leering?
 
Belz... said:
I think Rolfe's claim is that they won't be kicked out even if they display abuse behaviour because of other considerations.
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Well that sucks. Probably should do something about that.

Still don't see how that justifies a blanket ban on trans women based on the bad action of a few individuals.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
That's how to circle back to TERFs as a term. Because plenty of feminists have no problem at all with trans people. Trans people have long been understood to be members of the queer community. The TERFs are the fringe group, trying to saw off the T in LGBT acceptance.
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I'm not sure exactly how fringe people who would like to exclude trans women from women's-only spaces are. Leaving aside prominent advocates like JK Rowling, the Trump administration is currently attempting to modify a law that requires single-sex shelters to admit trans people.
 
Rolfe said:
But these people are trans. That's the point. They say they're trans so they are trans. There is no other criterion. And no, they are never asked to leave. That would be transphobic.

The woman either leaves, or is subjected to a scolding for being transphobic, and then leaves.
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You brought up these examples in response to my post. But I explicitly said in the post you responded to that not all transwomen should be allowed into women's shelters. And I've argued at length in earlier posts that self-identification didn't suffice for accessing women-only spaces, for precisely these reasons. So while these things are relevant to the debate in general, they don't actually argue against what I said.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I'm not sure exactly how fringe people who would like to exclude trans women from women's-only spaces are. Leaving aside prominent advocates like JK Rowling, the Trump administration is currently attempting to modify a law that requires single-sex shelters to admit trans people.
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Well, you don't expect much from the right. Anti trans animus goes right onto the big pile with all the other bigotries of the conservatives.

The particular animus towards TERFs comes from them couching their bigotry in the language of feminism and acceptance. A knife in the back from a friend is more painful.

I think that's why someone like Rowling is such a disappointment. People see her as an ally of years gone by, and her descent into stubborn TERF bigotry hurts more than hearing some MAGA CHUD being a CHUD. The disappointment is much more pronounced when it comes from people that may otherwise be ideologically aligned.

Then you get really strange scenarios, where TERFs team up with the Christian Right to attack their shared enemies. Strange bedfellows indeed.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/radical-feminists-and-conservative-christians-team-up-against-transgender-people
 
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Ziggurat said:
No doubt. Which is why I said someone like Yaniv should be excluded. But you can't walk around with an erection if your dick has been cut off, can you? So that's rather explicitly not the sort of scenario that could happen for a post-op transwoman.
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Of course, one of the things that makes conversation problematic is that the one term "trans-person", is used to encompass everything from self-id only to fully complete surgical transition.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would be willing to treat full surgical transition as their adopted sex for almost any purpose, including occupying a women's shelter. I think most people would. On the other hand, for someone who is pure self ID and not even doing any sort of body or social modification, i.e. like our bearded twitter person a few pages back, I'm not willing to treat that person as a woman for pretty much any purpose at all.

So, should trans women be allowed in women's shelters? In my opinion, it would be best to leave the decision to the discretion of the shelter operator, even in the case of government funded shelters. The male bodied person should not be "entitled" in any sense to access, but the staff should be able to use their discretion. Just my opinion.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Then you get really strange scenarios, where TERFs team up with the Christian Right to attack their shared enemies.
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Why is that strange? People who agree on positions team up where they share positions.

It's only strange if you think that there ought to be left and right, and that people should declare a side, and work for the positions held by their side.


Of course, a lot of people do indeed think that way. That's actually a lot of the genesis of so many stupid, "This is just like blacks and whites and the civil rights movement." comments. No it's not, but that won't stop people from saying it. (When it comes to "This is just like gay rights..." there actually is a connection, although there are also huge differences.)
 
Meadmaker said:
Why is that strange? People who agree on positions team up where they share positions.

It's only strange if you think that there ought to be left and right, and that people should declare a side, and work for the positions held by their side.


Of course, a lot of people do indeed think that way. That's actually a lot of the genesis of so many stupid, "This is just like blacks and whites and the civil rights movement." comments. No it's not, but that won't stop people from saying it. (When it comes to "This is just like gay rights..." there actually is a connection, although there are also huge differences.)
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It might be a moment of introspection if you find your goals aligned with people who you find otherwise hold reprehensible views. The article also cites past alliances between radical feminists and the Christian right in the attempts to criminalize pornography.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Well, you don't expect much from the right. Anti trans animus goes right onto the big pile with all the other bigotries of the conservatives.
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Sure. And, TBH, if I found myself on the same side as people like Trump and Kirk Cameron, I'd spend some time questioning myself about whether or not I was on the right side.

But my point was that it isn't just a tiny fringe who want to exclude trans women from women-only spaces. It's people with real power.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
It might be a moment of introspection if you find your goals aligned with people who you find otherwise hold reprehensible views. The article also cites past alliances between radical feminists and the Christian right in the attempts to criminalize pornography.
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Exactly, just like vegetarians should be apalled by their shared similarity with Hitler.

Are you going to answer my request any time, ST? It's a serious question.
 
Belz... said:
They can always meet at a restaurant. : )
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Sadly restaurants do not encompass the totality of human experiences and interactions. There are some activities - many related to bathing - that seem to benefit from a rather specialized combination of privacy and community that most restaurants don't offer.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The foundation of the communal safe space assumes that people are heteronormative. This already fails when you consider that homosexuality is common, and being in a single sex space is no protection from lustful eyes.
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Homosexuality is an interesting case. The heteronormativity helps to enforce the taboo against sexualizing the space.

Trans people are an even smaller subset of the population than homosexuals. The foundational assumptions of a sex segregated communal space just aren't always true. I see no reason to excludes everyone who isn't hetero and cis gendered in order to make this work.
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The specific question we are (or at least I am) discussing is the one of gender identity by personal fiat. If we normalize this, it effectively destroys the taboo against straight men entering women's safe spaces for the purpose of sexual gratification. It makes those spaces unsafe to a far greater degree than at present.

Without resorting to name-calling or other dodges, can you tell us in plain language where you stand on the proposal for gender identification by personal fiat, and how you would address the perception of unsafe spaces for women, if this is normalized?
 
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