Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Belz...]

Second, it abolishes the women-only spaces that women value a great deal for a number of reasons.

Can you confidently speak on this issue for women in general?

It removes spaces where women can meet and communicate in the absence of a male presence. It isolates women from each other and removes the opportunity for help, advice, and simple companionship.

You do understand that women go to these places to pee, change and shower, right? They can still meet wherever they want. You're overselling your point there.

You make it seem as though women are in a constant fight-or-flight scenario while men are strolling through life without a care.

 

[Meadmaker]

Yes, I saw it. First as you say it's not practical. Second, it abolishes the women-only spaces that women value a great deal for a number of reasons. It removes spaces where women can meet and communicate in the absence of a male presence. It isolates women from each other and removes the opportunity for help, advice, and simple companionship.

I've heard that men don't look at each other in the gents, let alone speak to each other. I've heard that some transmen have initially made horrible gaffes because they didn't understand this. Women use their single-sex provision for everything from a quick chat through borrowing a safety pin to helping out with menstruation issues to rallying round when someone is having a miscarriage. Not to mention that it's the place to go to escape an importunate male, and if necessary recruit some assistance against that male.

Ok. I think that clarifies things pretty well. (And yes, you have said that before. It just wasn't clear to me if you and Belz were talking about the same thing.)

 

[ponderingturtle]

Such intangible benefits were cited by the DoD in explaining why gays shouldn't be allowed to serve in the military. Queers were going to ruin the unit cohesion and morale.

And there was nothing homophobic about such differences of opinion, nor racist over the question of if the forces should be integrated. Those where just differences of opinion and they should be able to be discussed without name calling.

 

[Meadmaker]

You make it seem as though women are in a constant fight-or-flight scenario while men are strolling through life without a care.

To be fair, that's an exaggeration, but it's not completely off base.

 

[Rolfe]

That being said, I'm not sure what the argument for keeping, say, a transwoman who has undergone a full sex change operation and is on hormone therapy from being in a woman's shelter. There are transwomen for whom the causal observer cannot even tell that they're transwomen and not simply women.

And when you're sharing a bedroom with such a person this is not being in the position of a casual observer.

Nobody can change sex. Very very few males can reliably pass as female without suspicion. Many women who have suffered domestic violence are extremely phobic about male bodies. Nobody has any right to demand that these women share a bedroom with a male-bodied person, no matter how much cosmetic surgery he has had.

And quite frankly the accounts from women who have left these shelters, preferring to be on the streets to having to sleep in the same room as a man, are appalling. Men walking around with erections leering at the women (one of these was so pleased with himself he posted a selfie of it on Twitter), one man phoning up his girlfriend and describing in lurid detail what he wanted to do to her, all within earshot of his roommate, and no I don't know how these men came to be in women's refuges sharing a bedroom with a woman but they were.

 

[theprestige]

Guys, it's not up to you, and if it is, it shouldn't be.

I disagree with the underlying principle. Men and women are of equal ethical, moral, and intellectual value. We are all human beings. We are all endowed with empathy and the power to reason in the abstract. We all have an equal stake in the laws and customs that shape our society and our social interactions.

There is no aspect of public policy that we should not expect - require - men to consider and have an opinion about.

If you want to dedicate public space to women, men in society should have a say. If you want to raise taxes for women, men in society should have a say. If you want to constrain private businesses on behalf of women, men should have a say. We live in a society. It's up to guys and gals together. How can it be any other way?

 

[Rolfe]

Can you confidently speak on this issue for women in general?

You do understand that women go to these places to pee, change and shower, right? They can still meet wherever they want. You're overselling your point there.

You make it seem as though women are in a constant fight-or-flight scenario while men are strolling through life without a care.

No doubt you'll find a few women who say they don't mind unisex facilities, and of course nobody does mind them in the few small establishments where they exist, but the vast majority of women are used to the sisterhood of the ladies' room and won't thank you for abolishing it.

This is a place from which men are excluded. It's the go-to place to escape male company in a social situation, often to escape importunate male company. It's not about arranging to go for a coffee with the girls, it's about there being a place which can be accessed where men cannot go, and where one might hope to find female assistance if necessary - whether that's just to mind the baby while you pee, or hold your hand while you miscarry, until the ambulance arrives.

 

[Rolfe]

I disagree with the underlying principle. Men and women are of equal ethical, moral, and intellectual value. We are all human beings. We are all endowed with empathy and the power to reason in the abstract. We all have an equal stake in the laws and customs that shape our society and our social interactions.

There is no aspect of public policy that we should not expect - require - men to consider and have an opinion about.

If you want to dedicate public space to women, men in society should have a say. If you want to raise taxes for women, men in society should have a say. If you want to constrain private businesses on behalf of women, men should have a say. We live in a society. It's up to guys and gals together. How can it be any other way?

Oh, I think men will make sure they always have that say.

 

[Belz...]

No doubt you'll find a few women who say they don't mind unisex facilities, and of course nobody does mind them in the few small establishments where they exist, but the vast majority of women are used to the sisterhood of the ladies' room and won't thank you for abolishing it.

The appropriate response to someone asking you to support your claim is not to just repeat the claim, Rolfe. I'm asking you how you know this.

This is a place from which men are excluded.

And I'm suggesting a space where everyone is excluded, including men. Each individual has their own space for these purposes. Now you're no longer talking about safety but community. That's not the purpose of these facilities.

 

[Belz...]

Oh, I think men will make sure they always have that say.

Again with the sexist hand-wave. Do you have an actual response to theprestige? Is he not correct that men and women should have a say about how things are run in their communities?

 

[Ziggurat]

And when you're sharing a bedroom with such a person this is not being in the position of a casual observer.

Nobody can change sex.

"Sex change operation" is not literal, yes. We all know that, and we know what it actually means.

Very very few males can reliably pass as female without suspicion.

But not none, right?

And quite frankly the accounts from women who have left these shelters, preferring to be on the streets to having to sleep in the same room as a man, are appalling. Men walking around with erections leering at the women (one of these was so pleased with himself he posted a selfie of it on Twitter),

No doubt. Which is why I said someone like Yaniv should be excluded. But you can't walk around with an erection if your dick has been cut off, can you? So that's rather explicitly not the sort of scenario that could happen for a post-op transwoman.

Now again, what's the argument for excluding transwomen who can pass as women? I know the argument for excluding transwomen who cannot pass as women, and in case you couldn't figure it out, I'm not arguing they shouldn't be excluded.

 

[theprestige]

Oh, I think men will make sure they always have that say.

As a practical matter, I tend to agree.

But you seem to be advocating an ethical principle: Whether or not men *can* give themselves a say, you seem to be saying that they *should not* have a say. That they are ethically or morally wrong for giving themselves a say in certain policy debates.

I disagree with your position on the ethics of men giving themselves a say.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And when you're sharing a bedroom with such a person this is not being in the position of a casual observer.

Nobody can change sex. Very very few males can reliably pass as female without suspicion. Many women who have suffered domestic violence are extremely phobic about male bodies. Nobody has any right to demand that these women share a bedroom with a male-bodied person, no matter how much cosmetic surgery he has had.

And quite frankly the accounts from women who have left these shelters, preferring to be on the streets to having to sleep in the same room as a man, are appalling. Men walking around with erections leering at the women (one of these was so pleased with himself he posted a selfie of it on Twitter), one man phoning up his girlfriend and describing in lurid detail what he wanted to do to her, all within earshot of his roommate, and no I don't know how these men came to be in women's refuges sharing a bedroom with a woman but they were.

I'm not familiar with these examples, but it seems that the problem isn't trans people, but sexual harassers. I see no reason why a women's shelter can't throw out any woman, cis or trans, that leers or otherwise sexually harasses other people at the shelter. This has the added benefit of not excluding innocent trans people who are in desperate need of shelter.

 

[theprestige]

And I'm suggesting a space where everyone is excluded, including men. Each individual has their own space for these purposes. Now you're no longer talking about safety but community. That's not the purpose of these facilities.

I think historically it's been both. Locker rooms often seem to be regarded as a communal safe space. And I think that people probably need such spaces, where they can comfortably express things they have in common with a subgroup of the community, in community with others from that subgroup, and excluding people outside that subgroup.

Of course, it never works out perfectly. It turns out that both men and women are adept at ostracizing and abusing their own in locker rooms, for not being sufficiently "in" with their own subgroup. So even a safe space for women isn't going to be a safe space for all the women in it, or who might be in it. I bet even women's shelters have their share of bullies and bad actors among their residents.

But I don't think total conversion to individual locker rooms is going to be the right answer.

 

[Belz...]

I think historically it's been both. Locker rooms often seem to be regarded as a communal safe space. And I think that people probably need such spaces, where they can comfortably express things they have in common with a subgroup of the community, in community with others from that subgroup, and excluding people outside that subgroup.

They can always meet at a restaurant.

But I don't think total conversion to individual locker rooms is going to be the right answer.

Maybe not, but then I don't have a lot of ideas for dealing with this issue.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think historically it's been both. Locker rooms often seem to be regarded as a communal safe space. And I think that people probably need such spaces, where they can comfortably express things they have in common with a subgroup of the community, in community with others from that subgroup, and excluding people outside that subgroup.

Of course, it never works out perfectly. It turns out that both men and women are adept at ostracizing and abusing their own in locker rooms, for not being sufficiently "in" with their own subgroup. So even a safe space for women isn't going to be a safe space for all the women in it, or who might be in it. I bet even women's shelters have their share of bullies and bad actors among their residents.

But I don't think total conversion to individual locker rooms is going to be the right answer.

The foundation of the communal safe space assumes that people are heteronormative. This already fails when you consider that homosexuality is common, and being in a single sex space is no protection from lustful eyes.

Trans people are an even smaller subset of the population than homosexuals. The foundational assumptions of a sex segregated communal space just aren't always true. I see no reason to excludes everyone who isn't hetero and cis gendered in order to make this work.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'm not familiar with these examples, but it seems that the problem isn't trans people, but sexual harassers. I see no reason why a women's shelter can't throw out any woman, cis or trans, that leers or otherwise sexually harasses other people at the shelter.

They can and do.

It's also worth noting that in this thread I posted a recent poll (YouGuv, IIRC, but don't quote me on that. It was definitely a well-known, reputable organisation) which showed that a majority of women think that trans women should be allowed into women's shelters, and should be allowed access to women's bathrooms. I forget if they asked about any other women-only spaces, but those seem to be two of the three that generate the most conversation, with changing rooms being the third.

So, really, any argument that women should be asked what they want really has to take into account the fact that they have been, and the majority were in favour of trans women accessing women-only spaces.

 

[Belz...]

The foundation of the communal safe space assumes that people are heteronormative. This already fails when you consider that homosexuality is common,

Is 4% common? Well, that's not very important.

But I did notice that you didn't respond to my request to define "male" and "female", biologically speaking.

and being in a single sex space is no protection from lustful eyes.

Indeed.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

They can and do.

It's also worth noting that in this thread I posted a recent poll (YouGuv, IIRC, but don't quote me on that. It was definitely a well-known, reputable organisation) which showed that a majority of women think that trans women should be allowed into women's shelters, and should be allowed access to women's bathrooms. I forget if they asked about any other women-only spaces, but those seem to be two of the three that generate the most conversation, with changing rooms being the third.

So, really, any argument that women should be asked what they want really has to take into account the fact that they have been, and the majority were in favour of trans women accessing women-only spaces.

That's how to circle back to TERFs as a term. Because plenty of feminists have no problem at all with trans people. Trans people have long been understood to be members of the queer community. The TERFs are the fringe group, trying to saw off the T in LGBT acceptance.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm not familiar with these examples, but it seems that the problem isn't trans people, but sexual harassers. I see no reason why a women's shelter can't throw out any woman, cis or trans, that leers or otherwise sexually harasses other people at the shelter. This has the added benefit of not excluding innocent trans people who are in desperate need of shelter.

But these people are trans. That's the point. They say they're trans so they are trans. There is no other criterion. And no, they are never asked to leave. That would be transphobic.

The woman either leaves, or is subjected to a scolding for being transphobic, and then leaves.