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White Fragility

BobTheCoward said:
But how did the person attract others if they were alone on a deserted island? You were the one talking about islands. This doesn't sound like isolation on a deserted island.
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That one's easy too. They came paddling by in canoes, saw that the desert island guy had built himself a nice-life on the island. Nice house in the trees, effective fish traps, domesticated the indigenous goats....and attributed his success to innovation, self reliance and his faith in the crocodile gods.

The paddlers decided to stay, work hard, worship the crocodile gods and have a way better life than paddling around in a leaky boat. :)
 
BobTheCoward said:
I have no opinion on value of these statements so nothing rises to be objectionable/acceptable for me.
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You don't really seem to value anything. One wonders what you're even doing here, besides wasting everyone's time.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
Of course it's there. "Whiteness" is only ever spoken of as a thing to eliminate, or at least reduce to make way for something else. Non-whiteness, perhaps.

The infographic was taken from an article stating that "Whiteness and the normalization of white racial identity throughout America's history have created a culture where nonwhite persons are seen as inferior or abnormal."

Do you think that we shouldn't eliminate something in which nonwhite persons are seen as inferior or abnormal?

You're not a.....white supremacist are you!
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Having read the website, the following becomes plain: the list is a list of what constitutes "white racial identity"; the actual complaint is that the attributes on the list are often reinterpreted or redefined as "correct American-ness" rather than just "whiteness"; and what needs to be "overcome" is the tendency to see people who don't fit the list of attributes as "inferior or abnormal". Nowhere on the website is it suggested that white people (or indeed anyone else) ought eliminate these attributes in themselves.
 
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The way she describes white women's tears is akin to some contrived religious doctrine!

I have encountered black people at work who are unimpressed by sincere displays of sympathy from our white coworkers. We all do tend to generalize whole groups of people sometimes. But white tears and the white establishment? I don't think they're thinking quite that far.
 
d4m10n said:
Some of the attributes are positive and worth cultivating, though.
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Or maybe they are not.

I think answering the question what is actually positive is a much harder sociological question to solve than what common knowledge would lead one to conclude.
 
Ziggurat said:
You don't really seem to value anything. One wonders what you're even doing here, besides wasting everyone's time.
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I don't need to value something to participate in debate. I don't need a position to ask a question about someone else's position.
 
BobTheCoward said:
I don't need to value something to participate in debate. I don't need a position to ask a question about someone else's position.
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Sure. You don’t need to have a reason to be here. It’s not part of the forum rules. And yet... why are you here? It’s like the number of licks to reach the center of a tootsie pop: perhaps the world will never know.
 
d4m10n said:
Some of the attributes are positive and worth cultivating, though.
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That can be true, but it is irrelevant to the argument. Generally speaking it is positive and "worth it" to learn a second language, or to travel outside one's own country during one's lifetime for instance; but that doesn't make people who don't manage to do these things during their lives inferior or "incorrect" people.
 
d4m10n said:
Or maybe they quite obviously are.

Would you rather have hardworking coworkers, or lazy ones?
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"Hard work is the key to success" as listed in the infographic isn't taken to mean the concept of work "as opposed to laziness". Rather it's the ontological philosophy further described in the infographic by the thought-terminating cliché that "if you didn't meet your goals, you didn't work hard enough". It's the life outlook that leads to equating being poor with laziness or needing assistance as evidence of a personal moral failure.
 
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Checkmite said:
"Hard work is the key to success" as listed in the infographic isn't taken to mean the concept of work "as opposed to laziness". Rather it's the ontological philosophy further described in the infographic by the thought-terminating cliché that "if you didn't meet your goals, you didn't work hard enough". It's the life outlook that leads to equating being poor with laziness or needing assistance as evidence of a personal moral failure.
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What you're saying here seems reasonable, but you seem to be reading crucial connections in.

The propositions in the infographic itself are standalone and do not connect these thoughts in the way that you have done here.
 
Checkmite said:
That can be true, but it is irrelevant to the argument. Generally speaking it is positive and "worth it" to learn a second language, or to travel outside one's own country during one's lifetime for instance; but that doesn't make people who don't manage to do these things during their lives inferior...
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Inferiority is relative to one's personal goals. If you want to be part of consulate staff, demonstrate an ability to acquire new languages.
 
d4m10n said:
Inferiority is relative to one's personal goals.
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You're not saying anything that contradicts the argument.

Personal goals are just that. They are self-determined. You may decide that one or more of these attributes is useful in achieving your personal goals, or that they are not.

The complaint, though, is that these attributes are being used not just by individuals to gauge their own personal goals, but by society at large to judge other peoples' "correctness" or worthiness as "Americans".
 
Checkmite said:
The complaint, though, is that these attributes are being used not just by individuals to gauge their own personal goals, but by society at large to judge other peoples' "correctness" or worthiness as "Americans".
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"Worthiness" is relative to some given set of (inter)subjective values and goals. As someone who has to work as part of a team, I find diligent workers to be more worthy than slackers, in the specific context of working on our team. I don't for a moment believe this is a uniquely "white" or American phenomenon, having worked with people in Tokyo.
 
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