Would socialism/communism really help racial minorites

[Belz...]

I'm mostly on your side of this, but none of those are pogroms. A pogrom is a very specific (and horrible) action. You can't support the claim that they engaged in pogroms with evidence of other antisemitic actions.

I already know I used the word incorrectly, but the inability to understand the mistake, especially since we were discussing antisemitism in general, is just dishonest on his part.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Actually 'natural law', as dictated by genetics, has always created feudal or caste systems.

"Natural law" might best be defined as the state in which humans lived for the majority of our time on earth. <major snip>

Thanks for the attempt to educate me, but I'm familiar with all the received wisdom you presented chapter-and-verse.

However you seem to have forgotten that the discussion is about systems of government since humans first 'civilised' (Sumeria?).

 

[theprestige]

Actually 'natural law', as dictated by genetics, has always created feudal or caste systems.

"Always" seems like an overly strong term. In addition to feudal and caste systems, humans have come up with communal systems, tribal systems, free market capitalist systems, etc.

It's not always either -

- everything is owned by the king and you're his tenant and all the fruits of your labor belong to him

or -

- your role in the economy is dictated by the caste you are born into.

In what sense are caste systems distinct from other economic systems, anyway? It seems to me that in terms of economics, the caste system is indistinguishable from the feudal system. It's a hereditary class system, where your social class determines your economic role.

 

[Belz...]

Castes aren't necessarily hereditary though, I think.

 

[caveman1917]

I think everyone on this thread can see where I went wrong, and exactly who played games and when. I don't believe for even a second that you didn't understand exactly what was being argued.

What happened was that you demanded me to apologize to people for telling them off for making up false accusations of antisemitism in the USSR, while making up false accusations about Soviet-organized pogroms in the USSR. When it was pointed out to you that your claim was false (ironic given your concurrent demand of an apology from me) you doubled down, and then when you realized you claim was indeed false you started playing games.

Do you plan on actually addressing the evidence of antisemitism in the Soviet Union as presented by myself and others, or are you going to continue to bark at the moon?

I've already admitted that it shows the USSR to be the least antisemitic country. There are appears to be evidence that in some of the repressive operations by the Soviet State some of the victims were Jewish. The rate of victimization of Jews seems proportionate to their representation in the targeted groups, so this doesn't show specifically antisemitic policies (the same is true for Israel for example). This appears to be in stark contrast to pretty much the rest of Europe at the time, which curiously nobody is demanding smartcooky to admit to after him bringing up the Second Polish Republic in that context.

Loss Leader then pointed out that, while the USSR may not have been antisemitic, individual Russians engaged in antisemitic acts such as denying jobs or promotions. While I'm sure instances of this happened, these are second-hand anecdotes from long-ago memories. They also contradict the data that Jews were overrepresented in academia in the USSR which shows that, while instances of such individual acts may very well have happened, they did not amount to a systematic practice and it is inaccurate to claim Soviet society as a whole to be antisemitic on those grounds. Loss Leader even compared Soviet society to American society's treatment of minorities, yet I wonder, how overrepresented were black people in American academia under Jim Crow?

And that is, of course, assuming we don't just toss out second-hand anecdotes out of hand, as we well should.

 

[Belz...]

What happened was that you demanded me to apologize to people for telling them off for making up false accusations of antisemitism in the USSR

I asked you to apologise to one poster for being particularily savage to him.

while making up false accusations about Soviet-organized pogroms in the USSR.

Again, I'm 100% sure you knew I was talking about antisemitic policies.

I've already admitted that it shows the USSR to be the least antisemitic country.

So the USSR was indeed antisemitic. So you were wrong, then?

 

[caveman1917]

So the USSR was indeed antisemitic. So you were wrong, then?

How was I wrong? I claimed - entirely correctly - that the Soviets did not organize pogroms.

 

[Belz...]

How was I wrong? I claimed - entirely correctly - that the Soviets did not organize pogroms.

No, the post I was replying to was just complaining, as you are now, that the Nazis were MORE antisemitic, and that antisemitism was everywhere, as some sort of defense for Soviet antisemitism. I pointed out, using the wrong term, that the Soviet state was indeed antisemitic.

Remember that originally Loss Leader said :

The Soviet Union managed to be Communist and still make life miserable for Jews.

And your reply to that was:

Imagine seriously standing there looking at the USSR taking over from the Second Polish Republic and complaining because of the treatment of Jews in the former.

Which is completely irrelevant to the question, and to LL's point.

The USSR had antisemitic policies and actions. They were antisemitic. There.

 

[caveman1917]

I asked you to apologise to one poster for being particularily savage to him.

Maybe he should apologize to all the communist partisans who perished in Nazi concentration camps for their resistance activities against the occupation. Many of whom individually saved more Jewish lives in some of their actions than are claimed to have been killed in those purportedly antisemitic plots of Stalin[*] that are supposedly evidence of the USSR being "murderously antisemitic." He got exactly the right amount of savagery.

* Like a 100 or something? The dude killed hundreds of thousands in purges and plots for ****'s sake, of course at some point there's also going to be some Jews getting thrown in, that's entirely expected. That's not evidence of antisemitism, let alone evidence of the USSR being institutionally antisemitic, let alone of Soviet society being antisemitic.

 

[Belz...]

Maybe he should apologize to all the communist partisans who perished in Nazi concentration camps for their resistance activities against the occupation.

Barking at the moon it is, then.

 

[caveman1917]

The USSR had antisemitic policies and actions. They were antisemitic. There.

What antisemitic policies and actions did they undertake? What do antisemitic policies or actions have to do with whether a country is antisemitic? I agreed that they were antisemitic because, by default, every country is antisemitic:

Yes, if every regime is Jew hating then the USSR was too, congratulations on such an insightful notion.

 

[Belz...]

What antisemitic policies and actions did they undertake?

We've already provided you with the information. I even highlighted some of it. Educate yourself.

by default, every country is antisemitic:

What does that even mean?

 

[theprestige]

Castes aren't necessarily hereditary though, I think.

Fair enough. And I think classes are actually a lot more hereditary than (some) people assume. One of the big discoveries for me in the forum's recent "class in the UK" thread, was that in the UK you can change your income level and even your lifestyle but you can't really change your social class. In the US it's different, as income and lifestyle are the main signifiers of social class. There are still pockets of hereditary classism, though.

 

[theprestige]

by default, every country is antisemitic

Including the USSR. Which brings us right back around to the central question of the thread: Would socialism/communism really help racial minorities?

And the answer is: Probably not, if the attempts at implementing socialism/communism are anything to go by.

I'm still trying to decide if you arguing that the USSR was no more anti-semitic than any other country is either entirely irrelevant, or a central pillar supporting the answer.

 

[caveman1917]

Including the USSR. Which brings us right back around to the central question of the thread: Would socialism/communism really help racial minorities?

And the answer is: Probably not, if the attempts at implementing socialism/communism are anything to go by.

The answer is: Probably, if the attempts at implementing socialism/communism are anything to go by.

That is, of course, as long as the notion "help racial minorities" means "significantly improve their position" and not "the complete eradication of any sign of discriminatory thought from literally every member of the public."

I'm still trying to decide if you arguing that the USSR was no more anti-semitic than any other country is either entirely irrelevant, or a central pillar supporting the answer.

The USSR being less antisemitic than other countries is indeed the central pillar supporting the answer since, obviously, in order for something to "help racial minorities" the position of said racial minorities has to improve, you know from "more antisemitic" to "less antisemitic." And it's easy enough to check their track record on this measure, from the transformation of Czarist Russia to the Soviet Union, to the transformation of the Second Polish Republic to the Polish People's Republic, or the transformation of Nazi Germany to the German Democratic Republic.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

It's less peculiar when you realize that all the examples of "non-philo-semitism" in this thread have been examples of targeting Jews for persecution because they are Jews.

Call it how you see it, but to me it's as if "non-philo-semitism" is seen as literally "damning with faint praise" and only a short step away from "murderously anti-semitic". As I said, peculiar. Or perhaps paranoid?

 

[Ziggurat]

The answer is: Probably, if the attempts at implementing socialism/communism are anything to go by.

That is, of course, as long as the notion "help racial minorities" means "significantly improve their position" and not "the complete eradication of any sign of discriminatory thought from literally every member of the public."

No, this is wrong. Their positions have never been improved by communism. Occassionally their relative position may improve, but their absolute position still deteriorates due to the general immisseration of everyone living under communism.

 

[theprestige]

The answer is: Probably, if the attempts at implementing socialism/communism are anything to go by.

That is, of course, as long as the notion "help racial minorities" means "significantly improve their position" and not "the complete eradication of any sign of discriminatory thought from literally every member of the public."



The USSR being less antisemitic than other countries is indeed the central pillar supporting the answer since, obviously, in order for something to "help racial minorities" the position of said racial minorities has to improve, you know from "more antisemitic" to "less antisemitic." And it's easy enough to check their track record on this measure, from the transformation of Czarist Russia to the Soviet Union, to the transformation of the Second Polish Republic to the Polish People's Republic, or the transformation of Nazi Germany to the German Democratic Republic.

You're equivocating. Previously your comparison was of the communist regime to its contemporaries. Now your comparison is to the communist regime at different points in time. Racism also diminished in the regime's contemporaries over time.

 

[theprestige]

Call it how you see it, but to me it's as if "non-philo-semitism" is seen as literally "damning with faint praise" and only a short step away from "murderously anti-semitic". As I said, peculiar. Or perhaps paranoid?

You're being too cryptic for me to follow. Can you give an example of "non-philo-semitism" in this thread, that's being condemned as "murderously anti-semitic"?

To be honest, I'm not even sure what you mean by the term. To me, it connotes something like, "Jews are no more special than any other race, and are entitled to the same human rights as everyone else, no more and no less." But as far as I know, that idea has not come up for debate in this thread, and nobody here is equating it to anti-semitism.

So can you please give me an example of what you're talking about? Or at least explain what you mean in clear and simple terms?

 

[theprestige]

No, this is wrong. Their positions have never been improved by communism. Occassionally their relative position may improve, but their absolute position still deteriorates due to the general immisseration of everyone living under communism.

If the communist regimes did manage to oppress everyone equally, without regard for race, that would be bad enough. But they didn't even do that.