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Would socialism/communism really help racial minorites

So you just made up the claim of the Soviets organizing pogroms? How unsurprising.

What the hell? Did you not read the article? Did you not see the multiple mentions of said policies?

Why the hell should I apologize?

Because it was both completely unwarranted and very uncivil.

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What the hell? Did you not read the article? Did you not see the multiple mentions of said policies?

Can you show us where the article claims that the Soviets organized anti-Jewish pogroms? Or just admit you made it up, your choice.

Because it was both completely unwarranted and very uncivil.

It was warranted and civility is BS anyway.
 
And North Korea is a democracy since they called themselves a democracy....

If North Korea was the only country calling itself a democracy, you might have a point.

No, wait, maybe you do, though not quite the one you thought: a lot of the countries which put "democracy" in their actual name are **** shows:
Democratic Republic of the Congo
People's Democratic Republic of Algeria
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Lao People's Democratic Republic

It isn't that these are the only countries which consider themselves democracies, but rather they're so obviously NOT democracies but want to claim the legitimacy of actual democracies that they call themselves democracies in their official name. The tribute that vice pays to virtue.

Of course, the point you tried to make is laughably wrong, since again, the fact that some countries which call themselves democracies are not democracies doesn't mean that all countries which call themselves democracies are not democracies. That's simply not true. It's just that most democracies don't need to put that label in their official name. In contrast, there are no communist countries which aren't **** shows. All of them are bad. So apologists claim that they aren't true communists. But they are the only communists, so the claim that they aren't true communists is a pathetic farce.
 
No, wait, maybe you do, though not quite the one you thought: a lot of the countries which put "democracy" in their actual name are **** shows:
Democratic Republic of the Congo
People's Democratic Republic of Algeria
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Lao People's Democratic Republic

It isn't that these are the only countries which consider themselves democracies, but rather they're so obviously NOT democracies but want to claim the legitimacy of actual democracies that they call themselves democracies in their official name. The tribute that vice pays to virtue.

Then that would also apply to political parties with "communist" in their name.

They are just vehicles for various forms of achieving communism.

In that sense, communism has been attempted, but it's always ended up in disaster during the transition period.
 
The article is ABOUT Soviet anti-Jewish discrimination. What exactly is your problem here?

:rolleyes:

Why is it so hard for you to just admit you made it up? And why do you feel the need to make things up like that? It's not like there weren't any actual Jewish pogroms, but let me guess, those ones don't suit your ideological requirements (the Soviets are documented as stopping them) so you just make some up instead?

Justify it, then.

How about you justify your making up of false claims of the Soviets organizing pogroms? And how about you answer my questions which you've been ignoring:

caveman1917 said:
Have you ever even read any Marxist theory? Do you have any idea what it consists of?

I'll take an educated guess as to why you're ignoring them: because the answer is no and then you'd have to admit not even knowing what it is you're arguing.
 
I just provided you a whole link supporting my claim.

Did you read it?

Yes, it says nothing whatsoever about the Soviets organizing any anti-Jewish pogroms. If it did, then surely you can quote the part that states it? Or keep digging, your choice.
 
Yes, it says nothing whatsoever about the Soviets organizing any anti-Jewish pogroms. If it did, then surely you can quote the part that states it? Or keep digging, your choice.

Sure. If you insist.

The 1917 Russian Revolution overthrew a centuries-old regime of official antisemitism in the Russian Empire, including its Pale of Settlement.[1] However, the previous legacy of antisemitism was continued by the Soviet state, especially under Stalin, who spread anti-Jewish conspiracy theories through his propaganda network. Antisemitism in the Soviet Union reached new heights after 1948 during the campaign against the "rootless cosmopolitan", in which numerous Yiddish-writing poets, writers, painters and sculptors were killed or arrested.[2][3] This culminated in the so-called Doctors' plot, in which a group of doctors (almost all of whom were Jewish) were subjected to a show trial for supposedly having plotted to assassinate Stalin.[4]

That's just the first paragraph.
 
Sure. If you insist.



That's just the first paragraph.

Yes, that's just the first paragraph without any reference to any purported Soviet-organized pogroms, there are many more. Indeed, the whole article consists only of such paragraphs, as the Soviets never organized any pogroms - you just made that up out of thin air.
 
Can you show us where the article claims that the Soviets organized anti-Jewish pogroms? Or just admit you made it up, your choice.



It was warranted and civility is BS anyway.

Can you stop pretending you don’t understand he clumsily used pogrom as a synonym for antisemitism and just admit that the USSR was murderously antisemitic?

If you want to pretend that Marxism is the classical mechanics of social science, fine. That’s your prerogative. But let’s eschew with the whole defending Jew hating regimes cause’ of German Ideology stuff, okay?
 
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Yes, that's just the first paragraph without any reference to any purported Soviet-organized pogroms, there are many more. Indeed, the whole article consists only of such paragraphs, as the Soviets never organized any pogroms - you just made that up out of thin air.

What part of "legacy of antisemitism", "anti-Jewish conspiracy theories" and anti-Jewish show trials didn't you understand? Why do those not qualify?

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Can you stop pretending you don’t understand he clumsily used pogrom as a synonym for antisemitism

Aw, dammit, man. You gave the game up!

I was well on my way to spring the trap on 'im. In any case I think I've amply demonstrated caveman's dishonesty. He knew exactly what I was talking about and pretended not to. So I paid him back.
 
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Actually 'natural law', as dictated by genetics, has always created feudal or caste systems.


"Natural law" might best be defined as the state in which humans lived for the majority of our time on earth. That's about 200,000 to 300,000 years. For 95% of that time (and 99.5% of the time for hominids), we lived in tribes of about a hundred people.

A hundred people is way, way too small for feudalism or castes. They were largely patriarchies with a leader and a shamen. The highest, wealthiest member of the clan might have a slightly bigger hut and some more elaborate jewelry.


Sounds like you're just sad that the anti-semitic plans of Nazi Germany and the Eastern-European countries were thwarted by the USSR so you make up stories about the supposed "really, really, very antisemitic" nature of the USSR. Where was the Soviet version of the Nuremberg laws or something similar? That's right, it was nowhere to be found.


This may be the single least informed statement I have ever read on any subject in any forum ever.

First of all, you appear to equate the government of the USSR with the Russian people. You argue that since the government carried out no official policy, they are somehow better than the Nazis and Poles. Yet the original question was whether an economic system could solve racism. The question was, in essence, whether communism could shape and/or change human nature.

The answer is no.

The Soviet Union is a prime example. There is no doubt that the government of the USSR was established with the intention of equality for all. And the stated policies of the government were sort of consistent with that.

However, the Russian people never stopped being antisemitic. They never stopped hating and marginalizing Jews. That resulted in tremendous suffering, including more than sufficient premature deaths.

It used to be that one's religion was listed on their Soviet passport. There was a saying in Russia about Jews into at least the 1980's taught to me by an ex-girlfriend and Soviet refugee: Your face is your passport.

That's antisemitism.



Just making stuff up again? The Soviets never organized any anti-Jewish pogroms.


Nope, never organized them. Happily looked the other way as Russian people committed heinous acts of cruelty, denied them jobs and promotions, denied them equal housing, denied them equal justice in courts, imposed additional bureaucratic hurdles, denied them the ability to leave the country, and basically did whatever Americans have been doing to our non-white minorities for over a hundred years - yeah, that they did.


And I find Loss Leader's accusations against the USSR on the basis of anti-semitism (and your outright invention of Soviet anti-Jewish pogroms to support said accusations) to be despicable, especially given that in the context they are made in (the take-over of Poland and Eastern-Europe in WW2) they can only be taken as tacit support for the Polish and Eastern-European policies on the matter.


You have once again invented a false equivalency. There is no "more" or "less" antisemitic. The Nazis and Poles murdered Jews. The Nazis did it as an official government policy. But that fact does not mean that the Russians weren't antisemitic. Just because they didn't openly round up and exterminate Jews doesn't mean their people didn't find plenty of ways to discriminate.

The original question, again, was whether communism could solve basic discrimination. In that context, any antisemitism that translates into any discriminatory practice tends to disprove that. The Russian people were (and still are) at least as terrible to their ethnic minorities, including Jews, as Americans.

One wouldn't argue that America wasn't racist anymore because we freed the slaves. We found plenty of ways to be racist, despite the fact that pure capitalism shouldn't allow for such behavior. The Russians found plenty of ways as well, despite the fact that pure communism shouldn't allow for such behavior either.


Yes, it says nothing whatsoever about the Soviets organizing any anti-Jewish pogroms. If it did, then surely you can quote the part that states it? Or keep digging, your choice.


And yet my family fled Russian pogroms for the United States, with my grandparents able to recount horrific details from their childhoods - details that didn't tend to be much different whether that grandparent had been born in Poland, Romania, or Russia.
 
Can you stop pretending you don’t understand he clumsily used pogrom as a synonym for antisemitism and just admit that the USSR was murderously antisemitic?

Define "murderously antisemitic." I've taken a look at that Wikipedia page on the "Anti-cosmopolitan campaign" and it appears to be a political campaign against what was seen as bourgeois cultural influence directed at high-level intellectuals. The first victims seem to be physicist Pyotr Kapitsa and the president of the Belorussian Academy of Sciences Anton Zhebrak. Neither of them seems to be Jewish. Later during the campaign some of the people targeted were Jewish, which is entirely to be expected especially given, as the article points out, the overrepresentation of Jews in the scientific and cultural fields (about 20% of Soviet scientists were Jews but they made up about 3% of the population). This overrepresentation, by the way, speaks against this notion of the USSR purportedly being "murderously antisemitic."

If you want to pretend that Marxism is the classical mechanics of social science, fine. That’s your prerogative. But let’s eschew with the whole defending Jew hating regimes cause’ of German Ideology stuff, okay?

What Jew hating regime? The Second Polish Republic[*]? The rest of Eastern Europe? Germany? If, by your standards, the USSR is a "Jew hating regime" then it's hard to think of even a single country which wouldn't qualify as a "Jew hating regime."

* the comparative anti-semitism of which wrt the USSR was what set off this tangent in the first place.
 
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Define "murderously antisemitic."

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What Jew hating regime? The Second Polish Republic[*]? The rest of Eastern Europe? Germany? If, by your standards, the USSR is a "Jew hating regime" then it's hard to think of even a single country which wouldn't qualify as a "Jew hating regime."

And yet, it still was a Jew hating regime. "All the other kids are doing it, mom" wasn't convincing when you were eight.
 
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MisAndreG made it very clear that you're fooling no one.

So what, it was my improper use of the word "pogrom" that somehow meant it was entirely justified for you to ignore the USSR's history of antisemitism, which ran contrary to your claim?

Heh. Once again demonstrating that technically correct is the worst kind of correct.
 
It's so weird to see an avowed anarchist white knighting the Soviet Union, of all things.

You'd think there'd be an "enemy of my enemy" thing going on. Instead, it looks more like "enemy of my ene--oh wait that's my friend hol up".
 
First of all, you appear to equate the government of the USSR with the Russian people. You argue that since the government carried out no official policy, they are somehow better than the Nazis and Poles. Yet the original question was whether an economic system could solve racism. The question was, in essence, whether communism could shape and/or change human nature.

The answer is no.

I'm not interested in your "answers" that you pulled out of who-knows-where. If you have an argument to make then make it, if you don't then why bother playing an oracle?

It used to be that one's religion was listed on their Soviet passport. There was a saying in Russia about Jews into at least the 1980's taught to me by an ex-girlfriend and Soviet refugee: Your face is your passport.

That's antisemitism.

It was one's ethnicity and not one's religion which was listed, and similar stories about it were told by other national minorities as well. That's nationalism, not antisemitism.

Nope, never organized them. Happily looked the other way as Russian people committed heinous acts of cruelty, denied them jobs and promotions, denied them equal housing, denied them equal justice in courts, imposed additional bureaucratic hurdles, denied them the ability to leave the country, and basically did whatever Americans have been doing to our non-white minorities for over a hundred years - yeah, that they did.

Coincidentally I've just recently come across the data on Jewish representation in the sciences and they were overrepresented, not underrepresented, throughout the USSR's history. I'll hence take your other claims in that paragraph as just more dubious unsupported anecdotes.

You have once again invented a false equivalency. There is no "more" or "less" antisemitic. The Nazis and Poles murdered Jews. The Nazis did it as an official government policy. But that fact does not mean that the Russians weren't antisemitic. Just because they didn't openly round up and exterminate Jews doesn't mean their people didn't find plenty of ways to discriminate.

I'm pretty sure the Nazis were "more" antisemitic than the Soviets.

And yet my family fled Russian pogroms for the United States, with my grandparents able to recount horrific details from their childhoods - details that didn't tend to be much different whether that grandparent had been born in Poland, Romania, or Russia.

They fled the Soviet Union? Or they fled Czarist Russia? Which reminds me, if you want to figure out whether a socialist economic system can help fight antisemitism, it might be useful to compare the situation of Jews in the years before and the years after the socialist revolution in 1917 according to various metrics. Or, you know, you could just not bother with empirical observation and go by playing oracle and dubious anecdotal stories instead.
 
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