Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[ponderingturtle]

Who here has argued that they shouldn't exist?

Sorry that they don't exist not shouldn't.

Up next we will be hearing how there is nothing fundamentally homophobic about blocking homosexual marriages and adoptions, and it is wrong to think someone is homophobic for such political stances.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Like athletics, cycling races are divided into men's & women's. Unfortunately - and as I've commented on in this thread - some parts of cycling are way too liberal and are allowing blokes in dresses (yes, I do mean blokes in dresses, not transgender people) to compete against women.

And Eunuchs have no place in sport. It is clearly men and Eunuchs have never been thought of as men.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not in reply to any particular post, but for the sake of clarification what exactly do "cis men" and "trans men" have in common which put them all in the same category? Is it the way we're perceived by other people? Secondary sexual characteristics? A personal subjective sense of masculinty? All of the above? Some of the above? None of the above?

They identify as such. Think of it like Christians, there really isn't any one trait that fits into all Christians and excludes all non Christians, but being viewed as a christian and identifying as such is important to people.

So the answer is they have a male gender. And specific answer leaves you chasing all the strange cases that don't fit right into your definitions that you still consider

 

[ponderingturtle]

I didn't read the whole article, but Caster Semenya is not an XX woman.

She also is not trans as she was assigned female at birth. She fit perfectly into the "well this baby has no penis so it is female" that is the universal test for such things. Unless we go less universal definitions of gender where people can be other than male and female.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Any medical treatment designed to affect the course of puberty is bound to involve experimenting on pubescent children, whether during controlled trials or otherwise. The only question worth discussing is whether such experiments are being conducted ethically and with appropriate oversight.

As to who has the better insights on that question, I really cannot say. On the one hand we've got ethical philosophers such as Simona Giordano & Søren Holm (whom you linked upthread) and one the other hand we have dozens of clinicians who have worked in the field. The former are experts are applied bioethics, but the latter are actually dealing with gender nonconforming children and their families.

But experimenting to enforce conformity is GOOD apparently.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That is one of my biggest concerns. I'm trying very hard to destroy those gender stereotypes... This doesn't really help that.

So are all the trans people I know.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Who exactly is telling you that you are not able to identify, to some realistic degree of accuracy, whether someone is a man or a woman based on their physical appearance or mannerisms?

Looks at this sentence.

Looks at the topic.

Looks at this sentence.

Looks at the topic.

Walks away mumbling...

 

[d4m10n]

Sorry that they don't exist not shouldn't.

Who here has argued that gender dysphoria^WP isn't real?

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[ponderingturtle]

Who here has argued that gender dysphoria^WP isn't real?

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Lately I don't know, but in early days Rolfe was claiming that it was really a sexual paraphilia of dressing as a woman. Though I think that was in a previous trans thread.

 

[d4m10n]

But experimenting to enforce conformity is GOOD apparently.

Um... [emoji848]

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[ponderingturtle]

Um... [emoji848]

See intersex children. Much more permanent and invasive "treatments" have been standard for decades.

 

[d4m10n]

See intersex children. Much more permanent and invasive "treatments" have been standard for decades.

I happened to read a decent book awhile back which argued persuasively against those interventions, but the author was subsequently vilified as a transphobe. No word on whether she got cancelled or not.

ETA: Some interventions are probably medically necessary, e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12855103/

 

[tyr_13]

You think the poster paper was actually measuring detransition rates? Look at the wording again.

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The one I linked to? Yes, it was looking for evidence of detransation or transition regret, inflating the number if anything.

While yours was not. It was about people who decided against transition or medical intervention but kept transitioning (again, inflating the number).

If you think you have an argument I'm missing go ahead and present it. I'm not searching for you.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I happened to read a decent book awhile back which argued persuasively against those interventions, but the author was subsequently vilified as a transphobe. No word on whether she got cancelled or not.

ETA: Some interventions are probably medically necessary, e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12855103/

The article I posted by an intersex person who was also not in congruence with the gender assigned to them at birth has a lot about this.

Basically it comes down to consent and desire. A lot of intersex people resent having these procedures pressured onto them and never really wanted them, a lot of trans people really want them and have a difficult and expensive time attaining them. So it is a case of the the two communities not communicating well with each other.

ETA: found the article again

https://www.transadvocate.com/an-intersex-perspective-on-the-trans-intersex-and-terf-communities_n_14539.htm

 

[d4m10n]

The one I linked to? Yes, it was looking for evidence of detransation or transition regret...

No, it was scanning for keywords over a 12 month time period from a convenience sample^WP of patients who kept coming back. It was not tracking a representative set of GIDS patients over a significant amount of time to see whether they decided to stop transitioning, socially and/or medically.

To find out what the actual rate of desisting and/or detranistioning really is, we'd need a longitudinal study on a representative sample of individuals who began the process of transition years many ago.

 

[tyr_13]

No, it was scanning for keywords over a 12 month time period from a convenience sample^WP of patients who kept coming back. It was not tracking a representative set of GIDS patients over a significant amount of time to see whether they decided to stop transitioning, socially and/or medically.

"The reports that were retrieved in the search were reviewed by study authors to identify evidence that patients had detransitioned or expressed regret related to their transition."

Stopping a transition is not detransitioning in all cases.

The 'convenience sample' were 3398 patients in the national UK Gender Identity Clinic. As they're measuring how often that happens for that center, that seems like a right proper sample.

To find out what the actual rate of desisting and/or detranistioning really is, we'd need a longitudinal study on a representative sample of individuals who began the process of transition years many ago.

Oh of course that would be better but...

"Study findings are consistent with previous research showing low rates of detransition."

Also,

"Of these 16 (where the rate came from) one patient expressed regret but was not considering detransitioning, two had expressed regret and were considering detransitioning, three had detransitioned, and ten had detransitioned temporarily."

So of the 16 out of 3398 who they found had regret or detransitioned in the year, three actually detransitioned. Maybe some of the ten who did so temporarily will stay detransitioned or the two who were considering it would actually do so, but that's not a great rate.

And also, "The reasons stated by patients for their regret or detransition included: social factors, reporting physical complications, and changing their mind about their gender identity and identifying as their gender assigned at birth."

See that the first factor listed is something that people in this thread have more control over than the clinic does.

Pretty good evidence overall that this clinic is doing a good job of vetting people.

 

[d4m10n]

Pretty good evidence overall that this clinic is doing a good job of vetting people.

I'm trying to conceive an analogy that really works here. Imagine trying to make the argument that marriages generally last "til death do us part" because you sampled ~3k married people throughout one year during which they were attending marriage-affirming institutions, and if they stopped attending those institutions they fell out of the data set. Do you think that argument would pass muster with evidence-based skeptics?

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[tyr_13]

I'm trying to conceive an analogy that really works here. Imagine trying to make the argument that marriages generally last "til death do us part" because you sampled ~3k married people throughout one year during which they were attending marriage-affirming institutions, and if they stopped attending those institutions they fell out of the data set. Do you think that argument would pass muster with evidence-based skeptics?

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How about against the argument that a specific marriage counsel center's practices are faulty because of their high divorce rate, one presented evidence that less than one half of one percent divorced in a year (the first year being the year most likely to have a marriage fail)? Would you then conclude that the speculation that their methods are faulty need more evidence, or would you still put the burden of proof on the people who have presented evidence?

Stopping attending the NHS clinic didn't drop them from the set. It would mean this sampling method wouldn't be included in future sets.

And this is much more solid evidence than the speculation you've offered. So yes, in a proper evidence based approach it would be weighted much greater than the 'concerns' without empirical data.

 

[d4m10n]

Stopping attending the NHS clinic didn't drop them from the set. It would mean this sampling method wouldn't be included in future sets.

Suppose 100 patients decided to desist in transition during the observation year. What fraction of those came back to Tavistock to mention the fact? We only know of those that (1) did so and (2) used specific keywords.

ETA: Not to mention all those who chose to desist or detrans in the next 20 years.

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[theprestige]

How about against the argument that a specific marriage counsel center's practices are faulty because of their high divorce rate

Maybe they're really good at helping couples understand when the relationship isn't working and they'll be happier if they part ways?

I don't just assume that every non-divorce is a good outcome and every divorce is a bad outcome.