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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

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If "gender identity" is taken to mean a personal subjective sense of one's own gender, then the thing that I have in common with Buck AngelWP is that we both feel masculine rather than feminine, pretty much of the time. I suppose that works, though I didn't really feel masculine until after getting hit upside the head with androgens during puberty. Even then, the whole "Be a man!" thing felt more like a set of sex-specific social expectations as opposed to an internal drive for masculinity.

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Most people form a durable gender identity between the ages of 3-5. Most 'be a man' things are social expectations (and nonsense or at least based on archaic considerations), but that doesn't mean that even without those there isn't an internal drive.

Trans gender behavior and gender identity that doesn't match biological sex isn't bound to only our culture. It isn't a phenomenon only for the US/UK/west/whatever. People will latch onto the culturally bound indicators to validate their gender identity to varying degrees even if they are not trans gender, but there is the tendency for people who feel their gender identity challenged for any reason to go hard into those socially bound indicators. ('I know I'm a man even though I have female plumbing/a small penis/am sexually attracted to men/am physically small, my culture says men like trucks and wear blue, I'll signal I'm a man by wearing blue and driving a blue truck and put balls on my truck'.)
 
Sure. Many medical conditions and procedures are biologically bound. Gender identity wouldn't override those practical considerations. It wouldn't be on an individual trans-man's gender identity to insist on a prostate examine and it be covered by health insurance for the same reason that no medically useless procedures need be covered by insurance. However, the same trans-man gets to pick his name and his pronouns for the same reason that you or I get to tell others we are men and use male pronouns. They are and have been generally bound to the person's self-identity. You're not going to know their sex anyway, so it cannot be bound there. Now, before you actually know them, you are likely either going to use 'they' or whatever you perceive their gender to be based on their gender presentation. If they don't have other input, it's your call. If they do, it's their call. If there are overriding medical reasons, then it is the call usually of the medical community. Gender expression, gender identity, biological sex.



Which sports, where, organized by who?

Yeah, another 'it's complicated' because it is. I don't expect the considerations of professional sports leagues to match high school sports, or to match pick up games on the corner, even for the 'same' sport. They don't have the same primary purposes, so what factors are the most important will change. Their organization change, and who gets to make the call change.

A professional sports league's primary purpose is entertainment. How it does this often takes into consideration its audience's sense of fair play, sportsmanship, competitiveness, tribal affiliation, etc (oh and advertiser input is almost as important as what the fans want). Barring legal considerations, the leagues have the call. It doesn't seem to be an existential crisis, and their considerations on what level to put the bounds at is beyond my pay grade. I just don't care enough about pro sportsball to keep looking into vague 'what about pro sports' arguments. Specific arguments may vary.

A college or high school sports league isn't supposed to have the primary goal of entertainment. It's supposed to teach values and offer physical challenges that build character. When I wrestled in high school, there wasn't a separate league for women because there were not enough women for it. They wrestled the men. It was the individual's call to wrestle or not, they didn't have to even make a choice on gender, and it worked fine. (Mostly, the cis woman gym coach in my school wanted to force any girl joining to take a physical test which was nonsense and in fact specifically barred by law in New York at the time.) Schools have state backing generally and who gets to choose there gets even more complicated even quicker. As a practical matter, trans gender athletes have been competing for a decade (except in Idaho) and none of the hypothetical concerns have come to pass.

Local sports generally don't have to let anyone play with them they don't want regardless of reason because they can, literally, pick up their ball and go home. The overwhelming games of sports played are informal and rely on mutual consent. They also tend to be co-ed. The point of trans gender people is moot there. It is always the call of the people involved and what they value. More and more are putting the value on inclusive and welcoming rather than the obsessive focus on validation through victory (which is always hilarious to me because they're all at best a big fish in small pond).

Most of the 'sports' I take part in are co-ed, and their primary goal is to build personal skills and meet other goals as set by individual participants. Rules change often to prevent 'training to the rules' and not the skills. Refusing an opponent based on gender identity, gender presentation, or biological sex would be laughable or disrespectful. But martial arts tend to be you competing against the you of yesterday, so only tangentially related to most 'sport'.

Regardless of whose call it is, it should be based on facts and real evidence and not unvalidated 'concerns'. WIAA have allowed trans gender athletes for ten years, the NCAA for nine. Trans women haven't been blowing away records or even taking top spots at a rate even equal to their participation. That's even without requiring two years of hormone treatment, which drastically reduces muscle building (skeletal structure is not effected). It hasn't effected the viability of cis women in those sports. Empiricism beats speculation. Many of the asserted harms don't make a ton of sense.

An extremely well written and informative post. Thanks!
 
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You could put any objective factor in there and it would be equally valid. I'm a tall person trapped in a short person's body, I'm an disabled person trapped in an abled person's body, I'm a unicorn trapped in a human's body.

None of those are this. Why?

Because society doesn’t make such a fuss about these characteristics vs, gender. If someone said, “Hey I’ve always felt like a tall person trapped in a short person’s body even though I am only 5 feet tall” most might just see him as just a bit silly, or even as a free spirit, rather than as a threat to the foundations of society. He has a lot of leeway. There aren’t restrooms reserved only for tall people, He could try out for any sports team and be judged only on his total ability not barred exclusively because of his height (of course he had better be damn good in total if he hopes to actually get on a basketball team). He could get lifts to put in his shoes and wear vertically striped shirts to look taller without anyone making a big fuss or laws being written to restrict his options.

When it comes to height we readily recognize it is a continuum. But when it comes to gender we insist it must be one or another despite the actual evidence from biology. We similarly cut a lot of slack for disabled individuals to see themselves as more able bodied than perhaps they really are. We even encourage it. We certainly don’t tell them “I know you feel more whole than more limited, but I’m telling you that as I see it you are delusional and you are a c......! You had better always remember you were born without a hand and it is creepy to me if you see it otherwise.”
 
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I’m sure this must have come up in the thread before but I can’t find it. There are women who naturally make higher than normal levels of androgens and have been banned from women’s sports. e.g.
https://qz.com/africa/1610360/caster-semenya-testosterone-too-high-for-female-athlete-iaaf/

Yet these are XX women and levels of androgens vary naturally among all women (and all men).

How is this any different from banning extra tall men from basketball? Doesn’t their extreme, although naturally derived, position along the existing spectrum of height give them an “unfair” advantage? Shouldn’t they not be allowed to compete with “normal” height men?
 
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I’m sure this must have come up in the thread before but I can’t find it. There are women who naturally make higher than normal levels of androgens and have been banned from women’s sports. e.g.
https://qz.com/africa/1610360/caster-semenya-testosterone-too-high-for-female-athlete-iaaf/

Yet these are XX women and levels of androgens vary naturally among all women (and all men).

How is this any different from banning extra tall men from basketball? Doesn’t their extreme, although naturally derived, position along the existing spectrum of height give them an “unfair” advantage? Shouldn’t they not be allowed to compete with “normal” height men?

I didn't read the whole article, but Caster Semenya is not an XX woman.


To answer your question, I have never heard anyone suggest that an XX woman with abnormally high naturally occurring androgens ought to be barred from participation in female sports.
 
Most people form a durable gender identity between the ages of 3-5.
I've read this before but I still don't know how we know this. Of course most 3-y.o.'s will tell a psych grad student (upon being asked) that they are a girl or a boy, since they've seen that girls and boys are distinct groups and they've been told over and over which group they belong to.

A experience common to young boys with single moms (or dads who travel often) is having to be dragged into the ladies b/c there isn't a male parent or uncle around to escort them to the men's room. It's often an uncomfortable and frustrating experience, b/c one feels that they belong in the room with the urinals rather than the one with a sofa. Even so, I don't think this tells us about a deeply felt internal sense of self so much as it tells us that we're most comfortable in the places where we are seen to fit in, especially when the other place is taboo.
 
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I didn't read the whole article, but Caster Semenya is not an XX woman.


To answer your question, I have never heard anyone suggest that an XX woman with abnormally high naturally occurring androgens ought to be barred from participation in female sports.

You are correct. Sorry for the error.
 
Enh. I mean, every court case is decided on a "case by case" basis. And yet they almost always include appeals to legal precedent in their arguments.

I don't know what is so difficult about understanding the fact that it doesn't work like that here because they do not make their decisions based on previous cases.
 
I'm not going back down the gender/sex rabbit hole again until I get an answer beyond "Well it's complicated..." or "Well we're bringing back all the old man/woman stereotypes, we're just not calling it that but we're using them ironically" to that as well.

You wouldn't have such big problems wrapping your head around it if you actually understood the difference between recognizing that females tend to act in a certain way and demanding that they act in a certain way.

By recognizing that masculinity is a attribute associated strongly with males, as opposed to females, does not mean that we have treat masculinity as a exclusively male attribute nor does it mean that we have to stress that it's important that men behave in a masculine manner.
 
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Since we're going around in circles - and have been for about 1 1/2 threads - I'll throw one of my old favourites into the ring. I've never had a satisfactory answer, so have a crack!

How does gender dysphoria differ from body identity dysphoria?

(no irony in people with BID referring to themselves as "trans-abled!)
 
I’m sure this must have come up in the thread before but I can’t find it. There are women who naturally make higher than normal levels of androgens and have been banned from women’s sports. e.g.
https://qz.com/africa/1610360/caster-semenya-testosterone-too-high-for-female-athlete-iaaf/

Yet these are XX women and levels of androgens vary naturally among all women (and all men).

And?

How is this any different from banning extra tall men from basketball? Doesn’t their extreme, although naturally derived, position along the existing spectrum of height give them an “unfair” advantage? Shouldn’t they not be allowed to compete with “normal” height men?

Right. There should be only a single category. Only the best in each sport and competition. Screw women. If they're not good enough to beat men, they shouldn't compete at all.

Right? After all it's just a single spectrum.
 
I don't know what is so difficult about understanding the fact that it doesn't work like that here because they do not make their decisions based on previous cases.

It not difficult. I do understand it. All I'm saying is that even in systems like Sweden's, people still use court decisions as guidelines for how to behave, to stay on the right side of the law.

That's all.
 
Rowling is at it again

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1279759345539039233?s=19

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That's rather sad, having moved from fair points to direct attack.

The adverse effects study is dodgy as hell, taking no account of outside risk factors and based on clinical records only.

The "OMG, we're experimenting on children!!1!!" is even worse. If only she'd taken some time to read responses to that story, instead of going with the Daily Fail headline of a year ago.

Here's a much better narrative on what's actually happening: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2020.1747768
 
You wouldn't have such big problems wrapping your head around it if you actually understood the difference between recognizing that females tend to act in a certain way and demanding that they act in a certain way.

By recognizing that masculinity is a attribute associated strongly with males, as opposed to females, does not mean that we have treat masculinity as a exclusively male attribute nor does it mean that we have to stress that it's important that men behave in a masculine manner.

It still requires me, me personally not in some vague, passive, mealy mouthed allusion to society, to put meaningless expectations and roles on the sexes/genders and I won't do that.
 
Rowling is at it again

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1279759345539039233?s=19

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As my (Irish) mother used to say, "You may as well hang for a sheep as for a lamb."


ETA: One thing that struck me was her reference to an Oxford researcher who was a "professor of evidence based medicine".

Is there any other kind? I mean, I know that there's quackery out there that may as well come from Hogwarts, but, at Oxford, is "evidence based medicine" a specialty? Surely Rowling is not using an actual title there, is she?
 
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ETA: One thing that struck me was her reference to an Oxford researcher who was a "professor of evidence based medicine".

Is there any other kind? I mean, I know that there's quackery out there that may as well come from Hogwarts, but, at Oxford, is "evidence based medicine" a specialty? Surely Rowling is not using an actual title there, is she?

Maybe it means she specializes in experimental design.

Obviously we want all our medicine to be based on evidence, but most of the actual practice of medicine has little to do with experimental design.
 
As my (Irish) mother used to say, "You may as well hang for a sheep as for a lamb."


ETA: One thing that struck me was her reference to an Oxford researcher who was a "professor of evidence based medicine".

Is there any other kind? I mean, I know that there's quackery out there that may as well come from Hogwarts, but, at Oxford, is "evidence based medicine" a specialty? Surely Rowling is not using an actual title there, is she?

There's probably a language-ological term of art for when people use repetitive or redundant phrases to emphasize meaning.
 
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