Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[d4m10n]

Sports, bathrooms, pronouns. You don't build an identity and a movement around this.

I'm not in a particularly propitious position to say what the "T" in LGBT should be building their identity and movement around these days. When it comes to legally recognized civil rights, I thought Glenn v. Brumby was a decent start, and Bostock v. Clayton County was a reasonable step forward towards a fuller realization of sexual and gender equality. Once we get past the issue of employment discrimination, though, other particularized issues will be argued and resolved, one by one.

That same conflict doesn't seem to exist between transmen and natal men.

Men aren't socially conditioned or biologically adapted (strike as necessary, or not, depending on your own worldview) to fear being impregnated by members of the opposite sex. The stakes just aren't the same, either way.

ETA: Some scholars call this asymmetry penis panic, FWIW.

 

[The Atheist]

Do you really not see a difference between posting on one messageboard under a pseudonym and posting on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube under one's actual name?

There shouldn't be.

Anything I post as The Atheist is no different to things I post on Farcebook, LinkedIn or my own websites and blogs. I figure that if you don't have the 'nads to put your name to it, don't bother.

 

[Roboramma]

Are you sure? I think some of the posters who have been involved in these three threads do care about those cases, and would object to the person in that example being in the ladies locker room.

I don't think they would. I wouldn't. Emily's Cat has said she wouldn't. Rolfe has specifically said she doesn't. Is there anyone you had in mind who you think would object?

 

[d4m10n]

ICYMI

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1276837286437666817

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[Ziggurat]

Sports, bathrooms, pronouns. You don't build an identity and a movement around this.

No, you don't. You build a movement around a will to power. Those are just the tools of the moment, they will be dropped and new ones picked up as needed.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think they would. I wouldn't. Emily's Cat has said she wouldn't. Rolfe has specifically said she doesn't. Is there anyone you had in mind who you think would object?

Correction: I don't care about bathroom usage, as there are stalls in the ladie's room so it's not all that important. I don't care much about dressing room sin clothing stores, although sometimes you get people popping out half-clothed who might be uncomfortable if there's a person that looks like a man there.

I do, however, care a bit more about locker rooms and shower rooms, where nudity is frequent, and women in general are likely to be uncomfortable if there's a person there who looks like a man or has a penis.

I care quite a bit when it comes to middle school and high school locker rooms and showers. I think that puts pretty much everyone in a bad spot, and I'm not keen on subjecting a moderately large number of female-bodied people to the discomfort caused by having a male-bodied person in their midst while they're naked. And you can call me hypocritical if you want, but I also think that sending a transboy who is still female-bodied into a high-school locker room full of male-bodied people is a bad idea too.

Anybody who can even reasonably be said to pass, I care a whole lot less. If it's not obvious that your body belongs to the opposite sex, then roll with it. Use whatever most people are going to assume you are. Just don't go waggling your penis or boobies around, or people are going to take note.

It reminds me of this time I went to the art store when I lived in NE. There was an employee who had half of his face tattooed with a really complex and colorful pattern. He got angry at us for looking at his face tattoo. My reaction was pretty much... Dude, it's your face. How do you expect me NOT to notice that it's tattooed? Same thing holds when it comes to transgender accomodations. If you stand out significantly from what basic expectations are going to be, don't get offended if people notice.

 

[The Atheist]

And you can call me hypocritical if you want, but I also think that sending a transboy who is still female-bodied into a high-school locker room full of male-bodied people is a bad idea too.

My daughter's friend, who transitioned from a boy to girl when he was 16, was bullied to extremes by schoolboys in locker rooms.

This is why the only sensible answer is another whole set of changing rooms.

 

[Meadmaker]

My daughter's friend, who transitioned from a boy to girl when he was 16, was bullied to extremes by schoolboys in locker rooms.

This is why the only sensible answer is another whole set of changing rooms.

Bullied before transition, after transition, or both?

 

[The Atheist]

Bullied before transition, after transition, or both?

After. He transitioned during the school holidays and started a new school, but word gets around and they knew.

 

[d4m10n]

After. He transitioned during the school holidays and started a new school, but word gets around and they knew.

What were the bully schoolboys doing in the locker room for girls?

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[The Atheist]

What were the bully schoolboys doing in the locker room for girls?

He was using the boys' rooms after transitioning to a boy.

 

[Matthew Best]

He transitioned both ways?

 

[Rolfe]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCrit...ynephilic_male_here_big_rant_about_denial_of/

 

[d4m10n]

He transitioned both ways?

I'm going to assume that "from a boy to a girl" was just typed in backwards.

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[The Atheist]

He transitioned both ways?

Crikey, now I'll have to go back and check if I got something wrong somewhere.

For clarity:

Born a girl* and my daughter's best friend at primary, junior college and high school.

Transitioned to boy at age 15, at the end of 1st year of high school.

Went to different school, in different suburb, for the last two years of school. Was bullied there.

That was three years ago & he's now engaged to a woman, due to get married in September, I think. Not having honeymoon in Bali as planned.

*The only time they fell out for a brief period was at age 13 when the girl thought my daughter was trying to steal her boyfriend!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Born a girl* and my daughter's best friend at primary, junior college and high school.

Transitioned to boy at age 15, at the end of 1st year of high school.

Did he start presenting as a boy at age 15? Or did he begin hormone therapy? I'm assuming that someone aged 15 did not surgically transition, I hope.

 

[Matthew Best]

Crikey, now I'll have to go back and check if I got something wrong somewhere.

For clarity:

Born a girl* and my daughter's best friend at primary, junior college and high school.

Transitioned to boy at age 15, at the end of 1st year of high school.

Yes, you did get something wrong. You said "My daughter's friend, who transitioned from a boy to girl when he was 16".

 

[Meadmaker]

Crikey, now I'll have to go back and check if I got something wrong somewhere.

For clarity:

Born a girl* and my daughter's best friend at primary, junior college and high school.

Transitioned to boy at age 15, at the end of 1st year of high school.

Went to different school, in different suburb, for the last two years of school. Was bullied there.

That was three years ago & he's now engaged to a woman, due to get married in September, I think. Not having honeymoon in Bali as planned.

*The only time they fell out for a brief period was at age 13 when the girl thought my daughter was trying to steal her boyfriend!

I don't want to pry too deeply, but I am interested in a few things, if you have knowledge and are willing to share. If I have understood you, we have a person with female genitalia in the boys' locker room in high school. I have said in the past that this is a very, very, bad idea. Based on your knowledge of the situation, would you agree?

Second, what was the nature of the bullying? Was it, "I don't want no girl watching my junk?" What I would expect would be a lot of "Don't you wish you had one of these?" Basically, still treating him as if he were a girl, demonstrating the difference between him and real boys, and probably some strong suggestions of demonstrations of the functionality of male sex organs.

Finally, you noted that people found out, even after he switched schools. Well, yes, they would, if he's using the boys' locker room. How could they not find out? Or has New Zealand gone the way of the US, where no one actually takes a shower anyway, or at the very least the one person not taking off his clothes, at least to underwear level, would stand out like neon sign?

 

[Puppycow]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCrit...ynephilic_male_here_big_rant_about_denial_of/

Is the argument that autogynephelia exists or that all trans women are either autogynephiles or homosexuals?

The short version is that there are two--and only two--kinds of MTF transsexual.

Yep. That's his claim. Saying that they exist is one thing, but claiming that all trans women fall into two and only two categories is a very strong claim to make and many trans women will tell you that they don't fit into either category. I see no objective way to test this other than asking these people how they feel. Just as there is no objective way to test for "gender dysphoria". It's just something that people claim to feel and you can either take them at their word, or not.

I think drag queens (many of whom do not identify as transgender; in fact many trans women would be offended if you suggested they are in drag) appear to be an example of a sort of autogynephelic phenomenon. But certainly many trans identified people reject it as an explanation for their own gender identity.

 

[Puppycow]

I don't want to pry too deeply, but I am interested in a few things, if you have knowledge and are willing to share. If I have understood you, we have a person with female genitalia in the boys' locker room in high school. I have said in the past that this is a very, very, bad idea. Based on your knowledge of the situation, would you agree?

Second, what was the nature of the bullying? Was it, "I don't want no girl watching my junk?" What I would expect would be a lot of "Don't you wish you had one of these?" Basically, still treating him as if he were a girl, demonstrating the difference between him and real boys, and probably some strong suggestions of demonstrations of the functionality of male sex organs.

Finally, you noted that people found out, even after he switched schools. Well, yes, they would, if he's using the boys' locker room. How could they not find out? Or has New Zealand gone the way of the US, where no one actually takes a shower anyway, or at the very least the one person not taking off his clothes, at least to underwear level, would stand out like neon sign?

I don't know about this particular situation, but I'm sure we've both been in enough men's locker rooms to know that the #1 unwritten rule is don't stare at other guy's junk. The "bullying" could be as simple as that. "Hey, there's chick who thinks she's a boy in here. I want to sneak a peak." Whispers, giggling, stuff like that seems almost inevitable in such a situation.