Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

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Sometimes it's more about being camp than being effeminate. I don't know how you distinguish really. Maybe camp is a better term because it's a thing on its own that's actually a perfectly valid way of being a male and doesn't have to relate to being female at all.
But as I said before, being camp is much more associated with men than it is with women. Thinking about it I might have met one or two women that might be described as "camp" but it is very unusual to find women being camp.

So a camp youth is showing behaviour more often associated with men than with women.

Also, nearly every trans woman or trans girls I have met has not been camp. I did once come across a trans woman who was camp - but the whole effect was to make her seem more like a gay man than a woman.
 
This feels like something of a dodge. I am skeptical of whether you'd ever approve of "woman" as the term for human females of at least childbearing age, in any context.
You mean females of 5 years old and above?
The youngest confirmed female to have a live birth was something like 5 and a half years old.

Now that is obviously an outlier of outliers but it does show that when we get down to the actual details the clear demarcation we assume exists is not that clear.

The world is simply not as black and white as we would like it to be or we usually assume it is.
 
This feels like something of a dodge.

Well, I'm not responsible for your feelings.

I am skeptical of whether you'd ever approve of "woman" as the term for human females of at least childbearing age, in any context.

You are, of course, free to make up whatever you want, even if it contradicts what I've actually said.
 
You mean females of 5 years old and above?
The youngest confirmed female to have a live birth was something like 5 and a half years old. Now that is obviously an outlier of outliers but it does show that when we get down to the actual details the clear demarcation we assume exists is not that clear.

The world is simply not as black and white as we would like it to be or we usually assume it is.

:jaw-dropp

:boggled:

:(:mad:


That's all that can really be said about that.
 
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The world is simply not as black and white as we would like it to be or we usually assume it is.
As a said upthread, well known problems of semantic vaguenessWP do not make categorical terms (such as "woman" or "adult" or "female") useless.

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You are, of course, free to make up whatever you want, even if it contradicts what I've actually said.
If you ever said it's okay to group adult female people under the rubric of "women" I must have missed it. So far as I can tell, you've called that practice misgendering.

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You mean females of 5 years old and above?
The youngest confirmed female to have a live birth was something like 5 and a half years old..

:jaw-dropp

:boggled:

:(:mad:


That's all that can really be said about that.

Yep. Lina Medina, a Peruvian girl in 1939. Gave birth to a full term healthy baby boy (6 pounds) via C-Section at the age of 5 years, 7 months, and 21 days.

The girls parents originally thought she simply had some form of abdominal tumor. Lina's father was briefly jailed but they were unable to determine if he was the father or indeed who the father was and she's never identified who it was.

There was some medical anomalies at work here, many of which are not fully understood since this was in the late 30s. Lina was certainly suffering from some sort of developmental or hormonal conditions, she was menstruating and developing breasts at the age of 3, but the exact medical details are forever lost to history.

Lina is ironically still alive, living happily in Peru at the age of 83. Her son, Gerardo, died in 1979 and was told until the age of 10 that his mother was his older sister.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/youngest-mother/ (Warning. Contains unclothed medical style photos of the pregnant girl which might be considered offensive or inappropriate)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina
 
This is again the core of the question we keep coming back to and have never got a meaningful or satisfactory answer on.

This is not a trap, a setup for a gotcha, or any other form of dishonesty or subterfuge. It is an open, honest question I want an open, honest answer on.

Let's take the big 3 things that form the core of this discussion off the table for a moment. I'm not denying them or dismissing them and will revisit them, but I want to remove them from the discussion just for a moment for some context and points of view, fair?

So sports (i.e does Person X play in the mens or womens league), bathrooms, and pronouns just... put to the back burner for now.

I've asked this question multiple times. There is a person standing in front of me that traditionally has been identified as a biological male. This person informs me that they identify as a woman. For this concept to mean anything some concept of how I functionally treat, not just internally conceptualize but functionally treat, this person has to now change.

What changes? It's not a hard or unreasonable question. I know have to treat this person functionally different because I have been given this new, valid information about them.

So what do I do? What do I do, not think but do, differently? It's not important (at this point in the discussion) what this things is, but we have, have, have, have, have to agree that there is something there. We'll call this "Factor X." Factor X, whatever it is, is what differentiates a biological man who identifies as a man and a biological man who identifies as a woman. We can fight about what it is all day, but we can't fight that it has to exist.

I initially considered the person in front of me a man, they have informed me they identify as a woman, so "Factor X" changes. Okay. Let's roll with this.

We now have to accept Factor X as a valid difference between men and women. We have put a difference between the genders on the table and we cannot take it off. No amount of hemming and hawing or "it's not that simple" can make it so a valid difference is not transferable.

If I treat this person differently because they identify as a woman, I have to factor in that difference in how I treat men and women. Factor X is know a valid point of distinction and difference between men and women. You can't make that not true. If a biological man having that factor validates his identify as a woman, it is now an identifying characteristic of being woman.

The entire concept of transgenderism is trying to create inherent factors in the... sexual dimorphism of the human species that we only use in "identity" never in any other context.

Person A is a biological man. He identifies as a woman. This identity changes something. That thing is X, whatever it is. X is now a valid difference between men and women. A woman who doesn't have X is less of a woman. A man who does have X is now less of man.

If there is no "Factor X" this whole thing is the longest and most pointless thing since "is a hotdog a sandwich?" And honestly since if history holds true people are going to fight me on defining X in equal passion to arguing X simply has to exist, that's still the thing I'm leaning toward.

It's vitally important that a biological man who identifies as a woman and a biological man who identifies (or defaults) to identify as a man are treated differently, but it's also vitally important that we don't actually define what the a difference because then to not be thinking at random we'd have to treat men and women differently based on that same criteria and nobody wants that.

So a biological man and a biological woman I can't treat differently, but a biological man and a biological man who identifies as a woman I have to treat differently in some way that will literally never be defined even though that differences has to be exactly the same by definition.

This is not tenable. There cannot be no differences between the genders and sexes (that aren't already accepted as purely biological) but differences between the concept of gender and sex that don't use the same criteria.

And if I'm wrong about literally all of this we eventually do have to start defining these difference beyond "Whatever the transgender person says they are, we just have to believe them and can never question it, and every single case is its own case with no consistency or standards needed.

Okay so having said all that let's revisit the core practical applications of this; pronouns sports and bathrooms.

Pronouns. Fine after identifying as a woman I have to refer to this person using her/she pronouns. No problem if means that much to them I will certainly do so. I have some issues with how much of an "attack" misgendering is often presented as, but even with thinks I don't fully get I am not the kind of person to deliberately do things that other people find uncomfortable or insulting.

But... pronouns are weird. A lot of language doesn't even have them, don't have gendered versions of them, or implement them in radically different ways. So we have a civil rights issue that is language dependant? That's... weird.

Bathrooms. This person is now going to use the female bathroom instead of the male bathroom. Fine, I don't care in the slightest. But I don't care which bathroom anyone uses. The idea that feces and urine expression have to be segregated is stupid. A woman who identifies as a woman is as welcome in my bathroom as a woman who identifies as man. Just wash your hand and remember to courtesy flush if necessary.

But again under the framework of the transgender argument woman who identifies as a man going into the men's room and a woman who identifies as a woman going into the men's room have to treated differently, one has to be more welcomed then the other and... well I don't agree. So again I'm doing the right thing but not for the right reason.

Sports is the most complicated but oddly enough for me the answer is simple. Sports are entertainment. The answer is whatever people want to watch. If nobody wants to watch trans-athletes compete in certain leagues they simply won't watch, the leagues fold, and nobody wins in that scenario.
 
If you ever said it's okay to group adult female people under the rubric of "women" I must have missed it. So far as I can tell, you've called that practice misgendering.

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What can I say? I'm back to suggesting that if you want to comment on my posts then perhaps you first ought to take the time to read them.

Perhaps I should make it clear that when I use the term "read" in this context I mean "pay attention to what they say", rather than "skim them in order to work out how to fit me into a predetermined box or for an opportunity to dishonestly engineer a gotcha".
 
Bathrooms. This person is now going to use the female bathroom instead of the male bathroom. Fine, I don't care in the slightest....

Sports is the most complicated but oddly enough for me the answer is simple. Sports are entertainment. The answer is whatever people want to watch. If nobody wants to watch trans-athletes compete in certain leagues they simply won't watch, the leagues fold, and nobody wins in that scenario.

Your answers seem to be, "I don't care, so no one should care."

An awful lot of men feel that way.
 
What can I say?
You could point to a post number in which you said it's not immoral to use the term "woman" to denote sex rather than gender.

You could say it right now.

Or, you could just be snarky as usual.

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I've asked this question multiple times. There is a person standing in front of me that traditionally has been identified as a biological male. This person informs me that they identify as a woman. For this concept to mean anything some concept of how I functionally treat, not just internally conceptualize but functionally treat, this person has to now change.

What changes? It's not a hard or unreasonable question.

I had a longer answer in the works and then I realized you are right. The person is a biological male. I will not change anything at all about how I treat this person if he declares that he identifies as a woman.
 
You could point to a post number in which you said it's not immoral to use the term "woman" to denote sex rather than gender.

I've already said that I'm not going to get into a tedious "arguing about arguing" thing. This goes exponentially so for someone who has more times than I can count misrepresented what I've said or just plain invented things out of whole cloth. Oh, and who has already said that they're likely to just assume that I'm lying anyway.

So, no, I'm not going to repeat myself endlessly in the vain hope that you'll either pay attention this time or, to float a less charitable alternative, that you'll stop deliberately lying.

I don't know which of those is true. I do know that neither makes me inclined to jump through hoops for you.
 
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You're being deliberately evasive, Squeegee.

Here are three distinct positions:

A) "Woman" should (nearly always) refer to gender rather than sex [Any glossary of social justice]

B) "Woman" should (nearly always) refer to sex rather than gender [OP, Rowling, Murphy]

C) Neither of the above, the word can refer to either sex or gender, depending on context and usage

These aren't hoops, bro, these are linguistic/political positions we've seen advocated in the course of these threads. I've repeatedly argued for the last of the three.

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If that's what you got out of over a dozen paragraphs, knock yourself out.

That's not all I got out of the lengthy discussion. I think I get what you are saying, and it's related to what Rolfe and Emily's Cat have been saying about women and identity. I honestly don't know if you intended it to be, or not.

You're looking for that "factor X" that is somehow supposed to change if someone is a man versus if someone is a woman.

Whatever that "factor X" is*, it doesn't change when someone who is one sex declares themself to identify as the other sex, so the way you have formulated it is a bit strange. However it relates to what the others were saying. For millenia, people have said that women ought to act one way and men ought to act a different way. As part of the women's rights movement, people rejected the requirement that women need to act a certain way. Now, people are trying to say that anyone behaves a certain way is a woman.

Many object to that idea, as they ought to.

As for my comment about not caring, I was drawing attention to the fact that you don't seem to care about the answers to when we ought to care about the real differences between men and women. That's common, among men. The women seem to care a great deal more.

As an aside, in the issues that you took off the table, you mentioned bathrooms. You didn't mention locker rooms. That's a common pattern, but locker rooms and other forms of changing rooms are a lot bigger issue than bathrooms.



*The real factor X is who can make whom pregnant. That matters.
 
For millenia, people have said that women ought to act one way and men ought to act a different way. As part of the women's rights movement, people rejected the requirement that women need to act a certain way. Now, people are trying to say that anyone behaves a certain way is a woman.

That's literally always been my point. We're putting gender stereotypes back on the table specifically to appease the concept of transgenderism because, as I keep trying to get across, there has to be a difference between a cis-male and a trans-male or... this all is nothing piled on nothing with a side of nothing pulling a cart filled with nothing multiply by nothing to the power of nothing... and if that difference exist is also has to exist between men and women.

You can't have difference between cis-people and trans-people without having differences between the sexes. It's simply not logically possible.
 
"I want you to treat me like a woman, not like a man."

"That's sexist. I try to treat everyone the same."

"Well, I want you to treat me different."

"Different how?"

"Like a woman."

"What would treating you like a woman look like?"

"..."

Checkmate, transwomen.
 
"I want you to treat me like a woman, not like a man."

"That's sexist. I try to treat everyone the same."

"Well, I want you to treat me different."

"Different how?"
Allowing them to compete in the women's division in the Commonwealth Games, for example.

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