Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[d4m10n]

You are, of course, free to make up whatever opinions for me you wish.

And yet I gave you the opportunity for clarification instead. What would you say is the word that people should use to talk about human females of at least childbearing age, especially in civil rights contexts such as the Hellerstedt case?

 

[Robin]

No, because I have better things to do think about than categorize individuals' behaviour according to arbitrary socially-conventional "behaviour templates."

So if you have no opinion about what makes a person effeminate that you are willing to share I am wondering why you are even joining in on this part of the discussion.

I am trying to find out what people consider makes a person "effeminate" and it is unhelpful if someone is going to be evasive about it.

 

[Robin]

Is there anyone who is willing to commit themselves on the traits or behaviours that they would consider would make a boy effeminate?

 

[d4m10n]

Is there anyone who is willing to commit themselves on the traits or behaviours that they would consider would make a boy effeminate?

Sure: Empathy, kindness, deescalation, active listening, playing with dolls which don't have guns or kung-fu grip. Basically anything people generally consider girly/feminine instead of manly/masculine.

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[Robin]

Sure: Empathy, kindness, deescalation, active listening, playing with dolls which don't have guns or kung-fu grip.

It sounds like "effeminate" means "not a complete dickhead".

 

[Butter!]

A friend of mine (female) did the same thing recently.

I've only talked via Zoom since this happened, and not one on one, always in groups, since she made this announcement, so I don't have much insight into what's going on with their life. (She has requested the use of "they/them". I don't know if she is actually declaring herself to be transgender, or non-gender. Linguistically, "they/them" is just incredibly awkward.)

I don't feel like a jerk at all. I thought of her as a woman. I still think of her as a woman. I'll do my best to go along with her new declaration of identity. It's not likely that I'll ever have to behave any differently around her, anyway. It's not like I was trying to start some romance with her.

However, there are still issues. If she tries to shower with the men, I'll think she is a fool.

Well, in my case, it is someone I used to date. And things were semi-serious at one point. So I definitely feel as though I wasn't there for her correctly, because I never even dreamed she was dealing with all that. Prior to this reveal, I had sort of given up on being able to understand this topic. The debates around it were too heated, and I don't care who changes with me anyway, so I just felt there wasn't any place for me in the discussion. "I'll call people whatever they like. I'm good!" I said to myself. But now, it has struck me that those of us who think we aren't really affected by this issue might simply not be approachable to closeted trans people in our lives.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[d4m10n]

It sounds like "effeminate" means "not a complete dickhead".

I'm not about to dispute this.

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[Robin]

And I question whether most people would consider empathy, kindness or active listening to be "girly" or "feminine" or that most people would consider these things to be unmasculine.

 

[Butter!]

Is there anyone who is willing to commit themselves on the traits or behaviours that they would consider would make a boy effeminate?

Well, the only person I've ever really heard call guys "effeminate" with any regularity is my dad. When he says it, it can mean all kinds of things. Usually some mix of skinny, soft-spoken, un-athletic, eats healthy, doesn't like action movies, wears jewelry, etc. It's actually hilariously regressive. When I was younger, I used to go on tirades and try to call the old man out, but his eyes just glaze over. Now, I merely give him a death glare if he says crap like "effeminate" or "unladylike" around me, and I change the subject as rapidly as possible.

 

[Butter!]

And I question whether most people would consider empathy, kindness or active listening to be "girly" or "feminine" or that most people would consider these things to be unmasculine.

Yeah, my parents have expressed this exact view. My mom has even told me, "Men who care about you will listen to your problem once. They don't want to hear you go over it and over it. That's the way women like to talk about things, and men don't have any patience for it. So if you don't want to fight, just remember to make your point once."

She cannot comprehend why I get so offended when she gives me this sage advice.

 

[d4m10n]

And I question whether most people would consider empathy, kindness or active listening to be "girly" or "feminine" or that most people would consider these things to be unmasculine.

Trying to be nuanced for a change, I'd say there is one set of virtues more associated with masculinity than femininity, and a distinct set of virtues more associated with femininity than masculinity. Some of these virtues become foibles when you take them too far, e.g. when empathy becomes abnegation.

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[Darat]

Is there anyone who is willing to commit themselves on the traits or behaviours that they would consider would make a boy effeminate?

From my childhood and my observations of working the last few years with a lot of under 20 year olds it is still defined as “acting like a queer”.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

What would you say is the word that people should use to talk about human females of at least childbearing age, especially in civil rights contexts such as the Hellerstedt case?

It depends on the exact context, and exactly what you mean by "should". In the context of an article about menstrual health, the menstrual health professionals decided it was "people who menstruate", for reasons already gone in to at length. It was Rowling who objected to that.

You keep trying to reframe this conversation as if it's me who's trying to dictate to other people what language they should use, as opposed to Rowling trying to dictate to professionals in a specific field that they should use her preferred terminology as opposed to their own.

 

[caveman1917]

So if you have no opinion about what makes a person effeminate that you are willing to share I am wondering why you are even joining in on this part of the discussion.

I am trying to find out what people consider makes a person "effeminate" and it is unhelpful if someone is going to be evasive about it.

You suggested it would be inconsistent for someone to hold both "transwomen are not women" and "effeminate boys exist" as true. I showed that to be false. If you want to find out what people consider makes a person "effeminate" then it would probably be more helpful to ask people who give such things some thought since I, as I indicated, have better things to think about than whatever random irredeemably daft nonsense those idiots *gestures vaguely at the world around him* managed to argue themselves into this time.

 

[Meadmaker]

Well, in my case, it is someone I used to date. And things were semi-serious at one point. So I definitely feel as though I wasn't there for her correctly, because I never even dreamed she was dealing with all that. Prior to this reveal, I had sort of given up on being able to understand this topic. The debates around it were too heated, and I don't care who changes with me anyway, so I just felt there wasn't any place for me in the discussion. "I'll call people whatever they like. I'm good!" I said to myself. But now, it has struck me that those of us who think we aren't really affected by this issue might simply not be approachable to closeted trans people in our lives.

I hope that makes sense.

Yes. That makes sense. Definitely very different from my case.

I don't know that anyone is very approachable on this topic, and I suspect that people involved in romantic or sexual relationships might be the least approachable. It's kind of a game changer in the relationship. It's one thing to tell a friend. There's no real risk. Telling a spouse, lover, or romantic interest carries a whole extra level of weight.

 

[Robin]

You suggested it would be inconsistent for someone to hold both "transwomen are not women" and "effeminate boys exist" as true. I showed that to be false.

No you didn't. The very idea of there being behaviours stereotypically regarded as "masculine" or "feminine" merely bears my point out.

 

[Meadmaker]

Yeah, my parents have expressed this exact view. My mom has even told me, "Men who care about you will listen to your problem once. They don't want to hear you go over it and over it. That's the way women like to talk about things, and men don't have any patience for it. So if you don't want to fight, just remember to make your point once."

She cannot comprehend why I get so offended when she gives me this sage advice.

And yet, I very much wish someone (other than me) would give that advice to my wife.

But your mom is wrong. If men care about you, they'll listen at least twice.

 

[Rolfe]

I am interested to see if Rolfe will answer your question. She was the one who said trans girls are "effeminate youths".

I don't know what the question was supposed to be, but to me an effeminate youth is one whose mannerisms interests and tastes (with a heavy emphasis on the mannerisms) are more aligned with those associated with girls.

Taken further this behaviour morphs into a conscious LARPing of the male's own internal idea of femininity, which is frequently not at all aligned with the behaviour or appearance of actual females.

Sometimes it's more about being camp than being effeminate. I don't know how you distinguish really. Maybe camp is a better term because it's a thing on its own that's actually a perfectly valid way of being a male and doesn't have to relate to being female at all.

 

[caveman1917]

No you didn't. The very idea of there being behaviours stereotypically regarded as "masculine" or "feminine" merely bears my point out.

Sure I did. It's perfectly consistent to hold that trans-women are not female humans and that there exist male humans who display behaviours stereotypically regarded as feminine.

 

[d4m10n]

It depends on the exact context, and exactly what you mean by "should". In the context of an article about menstrual health, the menstrual health professionals decided it was "people who menstruate", for reasons already gone in to at length.

This feels like something of a dodge. I am skeptical of whether you'd ever approve of "woman" as the term for human females of at least childbearing age, in any context.