Anarchy in Seattle--Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

[Stout]

The New York Post is a worse source than Fox News. It's not whinging to ask for a better source.

Well, debunk the content then.

Speaking metaphorically, rehearsing for a play, deep fake, not filmed at CHAZ.... Fling some, maybe some'll stick. Should be easy-peasy if the source is that bad.

 

[dudalb]

I am in a minority here since I an not that excited about the Autonomous Area,don't think it's the start of a wonderful new era, and think it will probably collapse in a couple of weeks.
People are not just thinking ratinally about this, frankly.

 

[dudalb]

Given the history of local cops coordinating with right wing street fighters in Seattle and Portland in the past, there involvement may not be helpful anyway.

You just hate cops,period.
Now explain how we can get along without them.
I agree there needs to be massive reform;but you can't leave the public unprotected in the mean tme.

 

[rockinkt]

472 people shot by police so far in 2020.

Police killed 1004 people in 2019. Black people were 24% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population.

Those numbers are terribly misleading if used without some sort of context.

Have you considered the fact that almost 48% of all murders in the US are committed by the 13% which may be an indication that cops are dealing with far more armed and violent offenders - per capita - in the 13% community?

Note: I am neither making excuses for the cases of police racism resulting in deaths that have occurred nor am I ignoring the causes of disproportionally high levels of violent crimes in the 13% community. I am just pointing out that it is intellectual dishonesty to throw out a statistic like you have without due consideration of all the possible contributing factors.
In other words - The statistic you quote does not - in and of itself - support any conclusions that race was a contributing factor in the mindset of the police officer(s) as to whether they pulled their triggers or not.

 

[William Parcher]

What it means is that a disproportionate number of non-white black people are being killed by police.

If you looked at the link, you'd see that 72% of those killed are non-white.
Yet they only make up 27% of the US population.

ETA: OK, those numbers are not good. 106 of the records for 2020 don't identify "race", so number that we can be more sure of are;
White - 182 = 50%. % of US population - 73%
Black - 100 = 27%. % of US population - 12.7%

Still disproportionate

It looks like the police are killing a lot more non-black people than black people.

It looks like around 75% of the people killed by police are not black people.

 

[Giordano]

I am in a minority here since I an not that excited about the Autonomous Area,don't think it's the start of a wonderful new era, and think it will probably collapse in a couple of weeks.
People are not just thinking ratinally about this, frankly.

I doubt many people here, certainly not myself, ever believed that CHAZ will expand over the USA into a new age of Aquarius. And yes it will slowly disband, as I believe virtually all the participants themselves knew all along. How were they to continue to fund it, interact with the state and federal government, etc? Especially knowing CHAZ was an irritant to the established governments and to many powerful forces?

The idea as I see it was to gain visibility and as sort of a demonstration that there were alternative ways of running a society without a formal and militaristic police force. To show that the demonstrators themselves were not the violent or evil forces that Fox et al portrayed them. Just as Woodstock once demonstrated to many that a large gathering of unpoliced people could be peaceful.

 

[William Parcher]

It looks like around 75% of the people killed by police are not black people. Here's another white person that was killed by police...


White woman, 52, is shot dead by police after 'walking down the street with a gun and a bottle of wine while warning of a race war' before opening fire on cops

Police bodycam footage shows the shocking moment a white woman was shot dead by officers after she fired a rifle at them during a stand-off in California.

Sandra Lee Harmon, 56, died following the altercation with two members of the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office on May 5. On that date, police received a call from a witness saying she had seen Harmon carrying a long rifle as she walked down a suburban street of Half Moon Bay, south of San Francisco.

'There's a woman walking down the street with a gun and a bottle of wine, warning me that a race war was going to happen,' the witness is heard saying in audio of the 911 call.

Harmon was also captured on a business surveillance camera brazenly brandishing the weapon as she strolls down the street. Deputy David Dominguez, an officer with the Sheriff's Department, could not locate Harmon, and subsequently knocked on the door of a nearby motor home in order to interview more witnesses.

It was there that he encountered Harmon.

According to a 12-minute 'critical incident' video shared to the sheriff's department website, Dominguez had 'a brief conversation with Harmon' at the door of the motor home. She then 'exited the motor home and leveled her shotgun at Deputy Dominguez. He retreated to the cover of his patrol vehicle, [but] as he took cover, Harmon fired the shotgun in his direction'.

Additional text included in the video reads: 'In the fast moving situation with incoming fire, Dominguez did not activate his body-worn camera. After discharging his service weapon, Harmon dropped the shotgun.'

A second officer, Deputy John Baba, was close by, and his bodycam was switched on. Footage shows him racing to the motor home and ordering Harmon to the ground. As she attempted to pick up her shotgun, Baba fires at the woman and she falls back.

'Don't move! Don't move!' he orders...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ad-police-walking-street-gun-bottle-wine.html

 

[EHocking]

It looks like the police are killing a lot more non-black people than black people.

It looks like around 75% of the people killed by police are not black people.

US Cops kill a disproportionate number of non-white people.
From those numbers alone for 2020;

Cop kills per capita USA

Whites - 8.0%
Non-White - 20.1 %
Black - 24.6 %

Cops kill 3 times as many black people by population than they do white people. The ratio is disproportionate.

 

[EHocking]

It looks like around 75% of the people killed by police are not black people. Here's another white person that was killed by police...

... while shooting at them.

The argument is not that police don't shoot white people.
The argument is that they disproportionately kill non-white people.

 

[William Parcher]

US Cops kill a disproportionate number of non-white people.
From those numbers alone for 2020;

Cop kills per capita USA

Whites - 8.0%
Non-White - 20.1 %
Black - 24.6 %

Cops kill 3 times as many black people by population than they do white people. The ratio is disproportionate.

What you have said is true. What I have said is also true. About 75% of the people killed by police are not black people. That statement is true according to the data that you provided.

I didn't know it was true and I actually would have guessed that 75% of people killed by police are not white people. I'm surprised, but maybe I should not have been.

 

[William Parcher]

... while shooting at them.

The argument is not that police don't shoot white people.
The argument is that they disproportionately kill non-white people.

Yeah I know, but the overall data you provided doesn't seem to indicate if the killed person was shooting or armed or whatever.

 

[Distracted1]

... while shooting at them.

The argument is not that police don't shoot white people.
The argument is that they disproportionately kill non-white people.

Sure, a little bit.
But they really disproportionally kill male people.

 

[Stout]

Yeah I know, but the overall data you provided doesn't seem to indicate if the killed person was shooting or armed or whatever.

That map that was posted here earlier the black one with the red markers gives a brief description of the events that lead to the shooting.

Trigger Warning: The descriptions used and the links to media stories about the shootings in the Seattle area are based on Fox News. So, ugh, maybe they didn't happen ?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

So you are claiming that none of it matters because it was only a few ******* that were killed and there are plenty more where they came from.

Take a long hard look at who and what you are.

No, I wasn't claiming that. I was making a statement of fact. That's it's extraordinarily easy to not be murdered by police. So easy that all of the people in this thread are doing it right now!

Really, though. Is that such a controversial statement? That it's easy to not get murdered by the police? I know we're not supposed to believe it, but there you have it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You just hate cops,period.
Now explain how we can get along without them.
I agree there needs to be massive reform;but you can't leave the public unprotected in the mean tme.

WE get along with them by vastly reducing their number and the scope of their mission, while vigorously prosecuting them when they step over the line.

 

[EHocking]

What you have said is true. What I have said is also true. About 75% of the people killed by police are not black people. That statement is true according to the data that you provided.

I didn't know it was true and I actually would have guessed that 75% of people killed by police are not white people. I'm surprised, but maybe I should not have been.

Again.

The non-white population of the USA is only 27% - yet account for 50% of shootings

You are twice as likely to be killed by police if you are not white.
And three times as likely if you are African-American.

I mean - all this discussion in the context of a BLM thread.
I can't be bothered nit-picking with the police apologists over numbers that are as plain as the nose on your face.
[/unsubscribe]

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, debunk the content then.

Speaking metaphorically, rehearsing for a play, deep fake, not filmed at CHAZ.... Fling some, maybe some'll stick. Should be easy-peasy if the source is that bad.

Starting with CHOP (formally CHAZ) the crap on Fox has been debunked, multiple times. There are no rapes there or black people shaking down white people, none of it. There's graffiti, otherwise stores have not been trashed or looted. A few people who live in the apartments are annoyed at lack of street access and a whole bunch more have said they prefer the Zone to the police tear gas and flash bangs.

I am in a minority here since I an not that excited about the Autonomous Area,don't think it's the start of a wonderful new era, and think it will probably collapse in a couple of weeks.
People are not just thinking ratinally about this, frankly.

No one expects it to turn into some big movement. That does seem to be the GOP talking points fear mongering though.

You just hate cops,period.
Now explain how we can get along without them.
I agree there needs to be massive reform;but you can't leave the public unprotected in the mean tme.

Not going to happen and a number of Democratic leaders are asking these guys to stop using the term, defund police.

I doubt many people here, certainly not myself, ever believed that CHAZ will expand over the USA into a new age of Aquarius. And yes it will slowly disband, as I believe virtually all the participants themselves knew all along. How were they to continue to fund it, interact with the state and federal government, etc? Especially knowing CHAZ was an irritant to the established governments and to many powerful forces?

The idea as I see it was to gain visibility and as sort of a demonstration that there were alternative ways of running a society without a formal and militaristic police force. To show that the demonstrators themselves were not the violent or evil forces that Fox et al portrayed them. Just as Woodstock once demonstrated to many that a large gathering of unpoliced people could be peaceful.

Exactly.

Yeah I know, but the overall data you provided doesn't seem to indicate if the killed person was shooting or armed or whatever.

The whole argument amounts to victim blaming. The police kill unarmed blacks, typically after the most benign stops or even bogus stops/reasons. Who cares how bad some black men are? It's not relevant. The issue is not police killing a disproportionate number of blacks, though that deserves a different investigation. The issue is police killing a disproportionate number of blacks who should never have been shot or suffocated in the first place! The issue is police killing people because said cop was pissed off or on a power trip. And the related issue is then a culture of covering these killings up as if not lying for an out of control cop means being disloyal to all cops everywhere.

That map that was posted here earlier the black one with the red markers gives a brief description of the events that lead to the shooting.

Trigger Warning: The descriptions used and the links to media stories about the shootings in the Seattle area are based on Fox News. So, ugh, maybe they didn't happen ?

As a matter of fact..... find another source or they didn't happen.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

There are very few "permanent" Autonomous zones in the World, and this one won't become one of them.

But annexation isn't really the point of an AZ; it's to show that life could be different if enough people wanted to.

 

[William Parcher]

There are very few "permanent" Autonomous zones in the World, and this one won't become one of them.

But annexation isn't really the point of an AZ; it's to show that life could be different if enough people wanted to.

But CHOP isn't working as a place where people can live safely. It's a temporary novelty existing under a microscope that is out of focus.

CHOP does show that life could be different. It shows it the same way it was shown with hippie communes in the 1960s. It's a righteous and wonderful new world when everyone lives in a hippie commune. The police and their brutalities are only distant memories. It was a world gone bad and the commune is a world gone good.

CHOP looks to me like a repeated 60s hippie experiment where a fundamental aspect is the elimination of police. Back then the experiment was voluntarily if you chose to join in. Now it's by force as CHOP is a designated zone right in Seattle and not a voluntary choice in a more remote location. Hippie communes were more often outside of large cities rather than within.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I can't find any specific reporting of the issue, but haven't he police come back to their precinct that was in the CHAZ? It's been a few days since I first saw reports of police returning to the precinct building.

Doesn't really seem like this occupy protest fits any definition of an autonomous zone anymore. The police are back and the street blockade has implicit permission from the city.

The protest continues, but continued talk as if this were some Mad Max anarchy zone seems especially silly now.