In the photo it looks a lot more like he is urinating next to it rather than on it. Ignoring the memorial, that looks to be exactly the type of place drunk people urinate in public. He'd had 16 pints. If it doesn't make sense that he would be making a statement by deliberately urinating on the memorial, maybe he wasn't?
Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice
- Thread starter Squeegee Beckenheim
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slyjoe
Illuminator
Manger Douse
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I don't believe anyone is claiming he deliberately urinated on, near or whatever that memorial - more that someone who's stated aim was defending the police and memorials should be more aware of where they're urinating
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
Once again skipping a bit forward in this thread, so apologies if I repeat.
But first of all, of course whenever something controversial occurs it's easy to find an instance in which someone did something stupid and bad. I think that's a poor argument against doing anything. Every good idea, every right, along with every bad idea and every wrong, can be argued against with examples of stupid people who took it too far. It's a good idea to keep those excesses in mind, but a poor idea, I think, to use them as an excuse never to do a thing at all. Sure, the slippery slope of destruction might lead from dumping the Colson statue to bombing Mount Rushmore or vandalizing a doctor's office, but every ongoing evil can be justified by pointing out that it's too late now to undo it without the danger of excess.
Politicians are fond of saying we shouldn't change horses in midstream, but if your horse is drowning, you'd better.
Second, the issue of public maintenance of a statue and its consequence on taxes. Of course there are many things done with tax money which are spread so thin that changing them has no effect on taxes. The fact that the maintenance of the Colson statue probably cost individual taxpayers nearly nothing does not somehow mean it was not done with tax money. Sure, if the statue added a tenth of a penny to your annual tax, the benefit of tossing it will not be seen in your tax bill, but there are other reasons for doing so, and even if keeping the bugger clean cost nearly nothing, nearly nothing is something.
But first of all, of course whenever something controversial occurs it's easy to find an instance in which someone did something stupid and bad. I think that's a poor argument against doing anything. Every good idea, every right, along with every bad idea and every wrong, can be argued against with examples of stupid people who took it too far. It's a good idea to keep those excesses in mind, but a poor idea, I think, to use them as an excuse never to do a thing at all. Sure, the slippery slope of destruction might lead from dumping the Colson statue to bombing Mount Rushmore or vandalizing a doctor's office, but every ongoing evil can be justified by pointing out that it's too late now to undo it without the danger of excess.
Politicians are fond of saying we shouldn't change horses in midstream, but if your horse is drowning, you'd better.
Second, the issue of public maintenance of a statue and its consequence on taxes. Of course there are many things done with tax money which are spread so thin that changing them has no effect on taxes. The fact that the maintenance of the Colson statue probably cost individual taxpayers nearly nothing does not somehow mean it was not done with tax money. Sure, if the statue added a tenth of a penny to your annual tax, the benefit of tossing it will not be seen in your tax bill, but there are other reasons for doing so, and even if keeping the bugger clean cost nearly nothing, nearly nothing is something.
Sure, he's a drunken fool.
I was responding to this:
"How dare these pisshead thick nazi scum wrap themselves in the Union Jack and pretend to be proud of our country. Literally pissing on the memorial to a police officer who died protecting parliament from a terrorist attack."
Unless one assumes he did it deliberately, how does this act imply he is "pretending" to be proud of his country?
Manger Douse
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Because someone proud of their country should probably check where they're pissing
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
I just haven't really seen anyone claiming that the issue regarding Colston's statue was them having to pay for its maintenance. That didn't seem to be the reason the statue was pulled down, nor does it address the wider problem of the often contradictory things we celebrate/remember.
In Liverpool, people are now taking issue with the offspring of people who benefited from slavery, which I find truly baffling, because if that's the case, we're all buggered. Thousands of "woke" young people are now sat in their local libraries for probably the first time in their lives, rifling through old tomes on a witch-hunt for any historical figure who may or may not have benefited from slavery so that they can attack his former home, spray-paint his street sign or pull down his statue, any historical figure and their kids, apparently.
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There's always a goddamn "wider discussion." That's how reality works. Everything is built on the intellectual and argument structure of something else until we're discussing nothing but pure mathematics and elementary particles.
But like I've said we are sitting here putting the statues in trolley problems they're still up there and that's a problem.
I hate to break it to you but "I hate the very concept of all statues for some reason" is not a big demographic in America, and if you start hitching Rushmore and Washington or even Columbus to the argument you're making it harder for black people to not have to stare at statues glorifying people who fought a war to keep them in chains because more people like those statues and black people's battle for improvement is not dependant on your cause consistency fetish.
So stop dancing around the "Oh but you're a.... *pause for dramatic effect* HYPOCRITE because you want the statue of Lee taken down but not the statue of Columbus" argument. "Total moral statue consistency" doesn't not outrank the continue subjecaction of African Americans.
Let the black community get rid of the statues that offend them before you start caterwauling about the ones that offend you to the point that the statues wind up staying up. That might not be your goal, but that's what you are doing.
"All Statues Matter." That's all you're doing. When the black community goes "This effects us" don't scream "It affects everyone!" at them.
If you're response doesn't amount to anything beyond a mumble mouthed "But I have a right to talk about whatever I want to, stop policing the argument" missing the point truism, don't bother with one.
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It is ridiculous to claim you can't be proud of your country and also get paralytically drunk and do stupid things. Is there a squaddy out there who hasn't been too drunk to know where they pissed/vomited? There but for the grace of God....
Manger Douse
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It's a rediculous claim that you're only in to London to protect the police and monuments if you then go an get paralytically drunk and piss up a said monument to said police
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
Lack of desire to discuss thread topic noted. Not sure why you're so insistent on pointing it out, though.
You seem to be the only one who thinks how much it costs is the issue. I took the liberty of hiliting the word that you seem to be so confused on. When the government installs and/or maintains these statues, people do not have a choice. When it comes to private museums, music cds, or t-shirts people do have a choice.
Coming from you, this is hilarious.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
Your post # 558, in which you bring up the question of maintenance cost, including this: "Tell me, since you seem to know how much was paid and by whom, was the council tax in Bristol lowered when Colston's statue went into the water? Did the locals breathe a sigh of relief that they now no longer have to fork out money for its upkeep??
It would appear from that post that you consider the issue of public upkeep of such statues a non-issue.
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
So how many more of them need to come down before you actually face up to the wider problems that you're currently afraid to address for fear of contradicting yourself like a woke Morrissey fan in a Che Guervara shirt?
After statues, will it be buildings? More street signs?
Is being offended (rightly or wrongly) by statues an exclusively black matter? How am I, random bloke on ISF, making anything harder for black people to accomplish? You seriously don't see the absolute lunacy in that post? Nothing I say, do or type, is in any way preventing current events from taking place, and the sooner you accept that you, random bloke on ISF, are spending all of your time arguing redundantly about why we should only tackle one subject at once, the sooner you'll begin to be able to converse with me without accusing me of somehow standing in the way of change by merely sitting here typing words on a bloody latop.
I've never once mentioned Columbus or Lee, mate, so I've no idea what you're on about at this point.
I've not claimed that any statues matter, so you're once again making things up out of thin air in a desperate manner.
If we're realistically going to wait until the black community have successfully rid themselves of every potentially racist monument on earth before looking further afield, we'll all be six-feet under the earth, mate.
Thankfully, we're not out in the streets, mid-stride, in a protest, where the outcome of our conversations determine the happiness of black people worldwide. We're just two fellas on a forum having a discussion, well, some of us are, you, meanwhile, are spending countless hours getting angry and posting thousands of comments about why we shouldn't be discussing anything else.
Okay, so let's do what you want to do, ridding the black community of racially or historically insensitive statues, where does that conversation go next? Seems we've said it all. Maybe you can enlighten me on how to further that discussion?
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
It's worse than that. Gilbert Syndrome isn't just saying "all statues matter", he's literally whining about Morrissey CDs and Che Guevara T-shirts while we're trying to get government funded statues to people who sold slaves and people who went to war for the right to own slaves removed.
and just to prove me right:
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Manger Douse
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I'm sure he thinks he's a double hard bed ******** patriot but I'd have thought a real patriot would be aware of a monument to a copper who saved us from them Muslamics
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
Considering my whole angle in that discussion was the similarity between the Colston statue and the Lovecraft award (being two forms of celebration for dubious people, forms of celebration that caused much heated debate to the point where one was pulled down and chucked in the water and one was removed as an award altogether because of its roots in racism) the matter of what the average bloke in Bristol realistically had to pay for the bird poo to be removed from Colston's noggin' isn't something I find at all relevant.
Not only that, but I don't recall the major issue regarding the Colston statue being that people had to pay for its upkeep. The issue seemed to be that he had obvious ties to slavery and people didn't want to celebrate him, just like many black winners of the Howard Award didn't want their achievements to be honoured with the silver likeness of a massive racist.
Colston and Lovecraft, two blokes who were/are celebrated despite the former's ties to slavery and the latter's outright disgust at "inferior" races to his preferred whites.
I'm in no way interested in what people paid for either, that's not been the matter I've been discussing.
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
Looks like it is in a private location too, so assuming you like it keep it up. Now, about that pic in the lower right.......
.I really not that familiar with Ali’s private life. You have provided me with some new info and context for Darat’s post up thread.
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Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
Interestingly, Gilbert's never once in the history of his time in this forum claimed that "all statues matter," lol.
Again, that you can't see the relevance in the wider topic of dubious people we choose to celebrate despite their obviously racially-insensitive politics isn't my issue. It's your issue, much like making up lies is another issue you seem to have. Not only that, but you're obsessed with me despite me not being the only person discussing other topics that obviously relate to the OP, consistently telling me you're not going to engage with me only to then instantly engage with me and repeat already disregarded lies.
I don't know about a "real" patriot, but expecting somebody to reliably notice a small plaque in an unfamiliar city after 16 pints is unreasonable. People piss on themselves after that amount of alcohol.