Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice

[Gilbert Syndrome]

I think it is pretty important to periodically take the time to thoughtfully re-evaluate our cultural heros and villains. Many times we will decide to continue to honor the heros or disparage the villains, but we will have obtained a greater insight into the larger sweep of their lives.

It’s not binary: one can still value Einstein for his genius even though he probably cheated on his wife and he married his cousin.

Thank you for actually bothering to understand the premise I was laying out and answer it honestly and without neckbearding me to into submission with inane babble about how much things cost to maintain.

That's all I'm asking. How much do people really wish to reevaluate? I brought up Morrissey because I genuinely have been having a laugh with a bunch of people I know who're supposedly "woke" (just watched "They Live" for the first time and discovered marijuana) Indie band members who're so very concerned with the plight of the BLM movement, yet they're all staunch Moz supporters, buy his records and wear his shirts, and it never ceases to amaze me that his racial sentiments don't seem to interest them because they like his music.

I'm not saying we should literally sit and analyze everyone we "celebrate", but I'm genuinely curious whether the most ardent supporters of revisionism are interested in widening the scope of their dragnet, because if they were, they'd never rest and they'd likely never feel comfortable enjoying a piece of music or reading a book ever again.

There's nothing wrong with change when it is necessary, but like I've said before, there's so much cherry-picking going on that it kind of makes the cause of "change" redundant. Society in general is often contradictory regarding what it accepts and what it refuses.

Personally, I can still enjoy Roman Polanski's movies, I don't have to agree with his actions as a human anymore than I have to agree with the way the kid who makes my pizza at the local Dominoes leads his life before I ask him to stuff my bloody crust. It's irrelevant.

With regards to Lovecraft, that's a tricky one, because so much of his literature that he's celebrated for is literally rooted in his hatred of black people and other races, so it's hard to separate the man and his dubious views from his work, as they're all so entwined.

Nobody we listen to, watch, read, or communicate with is perfect, but what's the context? You can make some sort of case for or against practically anyone who has ever existed.

Here, William Gladstone is the latest target simply because of his father's connections to slavery. Is that how far we're gonna take it? If all of these renegades spent even half of the time they spend raging in the streets helping their local communities, our cities and towns would be much better off and would actually have something to unite over rather than simply finding more ways to divide.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

In this thread, in which we are discussing the pulling down of not only Colston's statue but those honoring Confederate soldiers such as Robert E Lee, you consistently want to whine about people buying Morrissey's music, or paying to enter a Jack the Ripper museum, or now buying a Che Guevara shirt.

We can't stop people from liking fashion or art that you don't like. That's never going to happen. All you are doing is trying to water down the actual protests with silly complaints about t-shirts and Tower of London memorabilia.

Can you find and quote any post I've submitted that mentions Robert E Lee besides the one I posted in which I claim I've never mentioned him?

The fact that the context of what I'm talking about is lost on you isn't my issue, yet you keep having a little whinge about it and insist on asking me how much people pay for one example of celebratory remembrance for a dubious character versus the other. The point isn't whether we pay for one and not the other, the point is: people and things we choose to celebrate versus those that we don't. This is an extension of the very topic in the OP, yet you pretend not to grasp or understand it.

If you don't care to discuss it with me, then don't, because your constant making up of things I've never said is becoming tiresome.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Question for anybody posting in this thread who believes that bad deeds don't outweigh a positive myth when it comes to historical figures - how do you feel about Christopher Hitchens' revelations about Mother Theresa, and of her continued existence as a symbol of all that is good and holy?

No human alive is without some sort of "sin," if you want to put it that way. We're a complex gang of sods, capable of both good and bad.

If we're going to start looking at people with a magnifying glass of such scrutiny, we likely won't find a truly good person anywhere.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Okay, sorry to interrupt the thread with a stupid question, but he's been brought up a couple times now, and I clearly must have missed the memo, what's wrong with Morrissey? I skimmed his Wikipedia page and didn't see anything that seemed overtly controversial or all that odd or different than any other "pop star".

He's long been associated with the far right. He once called the Chinese a "subspecies", he wore the badge of and advocated on his website for a political party that even Nigel Farage considered to be full of fascists, he's had several anti-immigration rants invoking the far right rhetoric of losing British cultural identity, he's gone to bat for neo-Nazi Tommy Robinson, he supported both Kevin Spacey and Harvey Weinstein by claiming that their (underage, in Spacey's case) victims were to blame for being raped, and other things of that ilk.

Yep, yet many supposedly "woke" people still go to his shows, listen to his records and wear his t-shirts. When you mention Morrissey's dubious beliefs, they tend to go silent or find some way to distance themselves from his views.

Same with outspoken Ali fans, they ignore that he was a notoriously bad husband and father and generally disregarded women as a piece of meat.

Same with fans of movie directors, footballers, singers, authors, musicians, artists, politicians, historical figures and on and on.

We accept some of them, and disregard the others. We say it's okay to like this, but not that.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

So how long before Mount Rushmore is subjected to cannon fire?

I wondered that, too.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Only in the UK could some burnt out singer from a crap band actually be note worthy

He's only noteworthy in my estimation because of how many free passes he gets with his fan-base who so often try to distance themselves from his very very questionable views.

Not that I think we can't distance a person's "art" from his beliefs, I just find all of the squirming and excuse-making from "woke" Morrissey fans to be an endless source of amusement.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

"Keeping the discussion going" is now one of the main ways society and culture keep things from getting better for disenfranchised groups. Every time they ask for something that will make things better for them, (g)we go "Okay but only after we talk about" and then we never stop talking about it.

So spare me the lecture about backseat modding.

I don't understand that line of thinking. It's like you were just stopped in the street during a protest, mid-stride, and asked to have a wider discussion on the other issues at hand.

Mate, we're just blokes on a forum having a natter about stuff, you're no more or less bound by immediate issues than any of us are. This is a forum, all we bloody do is sit and have a natter about stuff.

It just seems like so many people aren't comfortable having a discussion that may or may not paint them in a rather contradictory light.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

So how long before Mount Rushmore is subjected to cannon fire?

SCOTUS ruled in 1980 that the Black Hills, where Rushmore is located, was unlawfully stolen from the Sioux Nations by the US government.

It was an 8-1 decision, a total no-brainer. The treaties from the time were quite clear that the Sioux would retain sovereignty of the land, which was conveniently ignored once gold was discovered.

Mt. Rushmore is built on stolen land. Perhaps destruction by cannon fire would be appropriate, if the land was returned to the rightful owners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Sioux_Nation_of_Indians

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Bunch of Far-Right middle aged white football hooligans have propped themselves up in front of Grey's Monument calling themselves the 'Defenders of Newcastle', they are going to protect the statue.

What they don't seem to realise is Earl Grey was the PM who abolished Slavery.

It's almost like the story of the outraged blokes who smashed up a pediatrician's office because they thought he might be diddling kids.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

The irony of the thugs "aparrently" attacking the police and giving Nazi salutes to defend the statue of Winston Churchill is only surpassed by the fact that Boris Johnson who dreamt of being like Churchill is scared to speak out against the thugs, because they are his base.

It's like poetry in motion. Like staunch voters of the Conservatives who aren't happy with how the government are handling things.

I stuck my hand in the fire and got burnt!

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

This.

It's basically a third person version of the "All Lives Matter" argument and serves the same purpose.

It seems like white people have went from no wanting to talk about racism to drowning out talking about racism by talking about everything else.

Nonsense.

There's a wider discussion to be had about these things. Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is demanding we take no action until we've had a lengthy discussion, just that there's other matters to look at as well as the ones we're currently seeing.

You presumably just don't want to have a wider discussion despite being the member of a forum for that exact bloody thing.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Just a reminder.

I think that the Confederate statues ought to be removed.

I do not think Columbus ought to be removed.

Both have been toppled recently by mobs with ropes. I don't think any statues ought to be removed by mobs with ropes.

That's what I'm talking about.

You? I don't know what you're talking about, because all you say is that other people shouldn't be talking about whatever it is that they're talking about.

But who pays for these statues?! That's what I want to know. Are they privately funded or what?!

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

How dare these pisshead thick nazi scum wrap themselves in the Union Jack and pretend to be proud of our country. Literally pissing on the memorial to a police officer who died protecting parliament from a terrorist attack.
!

Pretty much the question I used to ask myself whenever I saw a confused piece of graffiti featuring UKIP/NF/Nazi logos.

 

[Arcade22]

SCOTUS ruled in 1980 that the Black Hills, where Rushmore is located, was unlawfully stolen from the Sioux Nations by the US government.

It was an 8-1 decision, a total no-brainer. The treaties from the time were quite clear that the Sioux would retain sovereignty of the land, which was conveniently ignored once gold was discovered.

Mt. Rushmore is built on stolen land. Perhaps destruction by cannon fire would be appropriate, if the land was returned to the rightful owners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Sioux_Nation_of_Indians

Cutting off your nose to spite your face is very smart thing to do.

 

[JoeMorgue]

There's a wider discussion to be had about these things.

Oh really? That's your argument?

So, explain to me, why we always wait until black people want to ask to have the statues of racists traders taken down before people start pouring out of the word work handwringing to the heavens with a "but whattaboutaa udder statues?!" routine.

If there was a "wider discussion" we'd would have already be having it. Don't sit there and pretend that it just suddenly reminds you that you are super passionate about statues of Columbus and Mount Rushmore whenever Confederate statues (or equivalents) come into the news.

It's like being at the funeral of someone's kid and just all of a sudden deciding that during the eulogy is the perfect time to stand up and give a big dramatic talk over the person giving the eulogy about how much you love your kid and when people get made giving a defensive, huffy "OH sO yoU'r SaYing I'm nOT allOWED to lOVE my CHIld as well!?" routine.

This level of disingenuous is uncalled for.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Well, those he assaulted were volunteers and were paid well. They even had the opportunity to resist the assaults but most failed to do so.

IMO Ali did provide a positive contribution to society due to the protest movements that resulted from his refusal to be drafted. Whether that justifies a statue is of no concern to me.

Ali, like many, was a complex man. He was a staunch advocate for civil rights, anti-war, and supporter of race-relations, yet he regarded women as lesser members of society, didn't see any issue with beating up any of his wives, hung around with some pretty dubious and controversial people and was by all accounts a shocking father to his children.

Do I take his picture down? (It's a privately funded purchase, if that helps the decision-making)

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Cutting off your nose to spite your face is very smart thing to do.

You don't have to cut, the nose is falling off on its own.

Mt. Rushmore needs constant maintenance to keep the sculpture recognizable.

https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/top-stories/mount-rushmore-gets-some-face-work/article_11f9a314-f99d-5194-a9f7-1eec8ca87865.html

They do have very good ice cream there, and there are some nice hiking paths in the area. Without the monument, hundreds of roadside tourist traps would fold up over night. Where else am I supposed to pick my own gems?

Anecdote apropos of nothing. My father went on top the monument, which is not accessible to the general public. He had bartered flight simulator time with some park staff in exchange. Ellsworth AFB in Rapid City is the home of a bomber squadron.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

I'll just put you down as someone completely ignorant of how taxes and government work, then.

And I'll put you down as a person who is arguing about a statue being paid for by the local people yet is unable to provide any information about it whatsoever.

Indeed. By your own admission you are completely ignorant of everything you are pontificating about, and are unable to grasp basic concepts being spoon fed to you. I see no benefit to continuing to engage with you.

Considering I'm not the only person in this thread who understands the wider debate within the OP, regarding a very relevant discussion about people and things we deem fit to celebrate versus those we don't, you just seem to be cherry-picking pieces of my argument while pretending not to understand the relevance of it in connection to the OP, a connection other people than myself are discussing.

Again, though, considering you blatantly lied about me several times including the baffling suggestion that I'd claimed we shouldn't discuss taking any action at all, I can't say that your strange arguments about my comments are much of a surprise. Keep reaching for that rainbow.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Oh really? That's your argument?

No, it's my opinion, there is a wider discussion to be had on the back-end of all of this current drama. You're hardly in a rush to go out and protest, you're sat here, on a forum, on the internet, posting numerous comments about how a wider discussion is somehow a distraction. You've apparently got all the time in the world to tell everyone how you think a wider discussion is a distraction, yet you've apparently got zero time to actually have that discussion you could be having.

So, explain to me, why we always wait until black people want to ask to have the statues of racists traders taken down before people start pouring out of the word work handwringing to the heavens with a "but whattaboutaa udder statues?!" routine.

Do we? I didn't know we always waited until black people want to ask to have the statues of racists traders taken down before people start pouring out of the word work handwringing to the heavens with a "but whattaboutaa udder statues?!" routine.

These are questions I've brought up before but people such as yourself don't seem interested in the discussion. It's being brought up now as a topic for debate because it's entirely relevant to the subject. If you want to wait until all of this passes over and race relations are "sorted" then you'll be waiting an awfully long time, Kemosabe.

If there was a "wider discussion" we'd would have already be having it. Don't sit there and pretend that it just suddenly reminds you that you are super passionate about statues of Columbus and Mount Rushmore whenever Confederate statues (or equivalents) come into the news.

Guess what, there is a wider discussion to be had and some of us are having it. You're not interested in having the discussion, but you are interested in arguing about the discussion being had... Makes total sense.

It's like being at the funeral of someone's kid and just all of a sudden deciding that during the eulogy is the perfect time to stand up and give a big dramatic talk over the person giving the eulogy about how much you love your kid and when people get made giving a defensive, huffy "OH sO yoU'r SaYing I'm nOT allOWED to lOVE my CHIld as well!?" routine.

It's literally nothing like "]It's like being at the funeral of someone's kid and just all of a sudden deciding that during the eulogy is the perfect time to stand up and give a big dramatic talk over the person giving the eulogy about how much you love your kid and when people get made giving a defensive, huffy "OH sO yoU'r SaYing I'm nOT allOWED to lOVE my CHIld as well!?" routine."

Literally nothing like that at all, mate, lol.

 

[Dave Rogers]

So how long before Mount Rushmore is subjected to cannon fire?

I don't know, but it'd be nice to return it to its original condition. I'm told its beauty was unpresidented.

Dave