Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice

[Gilbert Syndrome]

We're back to apologetics.

Not really.

 

[catsmate]

Protesters in Bristol have pulled down a 19th century statue of a slave trader and thrown it in the harbour

Footage of it going in the harbour

Put it back. It's important Bristol isn't allowed to whitewash it's past and avoid scrutiny.

Protesters have defaced a statue of Churchill, spraypainting "was a racist" after the inscription of his name

Well that's true.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

*Looks at the black community*

Sorry, guess the statues have to stay up. The white folk ain't done talking about where the line goes.

It will be a hundred years from now and in the discussion we'll being swapping out the perfectly spherical statues in a trolley problem piece until no original piece remains over an infinite plane of uniform gravity in a frictionless vacuum that's not technically in the Champagne region of France......and the goddamn statutes will still be there in real life.

I've probably mentioned about a dozen times that I'm not necessarily against such statues being taken down, but you can carry on sobbing and wailing as though I had, if you like.

 

[JoeMorgue]

To JoeMorgue,

You see, Joe. It isn't some right wing bogeyman.

It isn't some slippery slope fallacy.

I've been persuaded that statues of Confederate generals don't belong, and especially not in abundance, but let's be careful out there. You can throw out an awful lot of good with the bad. If you let the mob throw out Colston, and they enjoy it, they're going to look for other opportunities. It's human nature.

I don't give one tin-penny company **** about any of that nonsense.

Yet again we're a point where we can make the lives of black people a little bit better and yet again your standing there going "Okay but we have to talk more." That's what I care about.

 

[catsmate]

I reckon there are a lot of Britons who have learned more about the British slave trade since the statue got chucked in the Avon than they did at school.

Very likely, given what I saw the last time I saw a GCSE history text.

Online Poll result says that the statue should be replace with one of Shaun the Sheep.

Paul Stephenson.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

I do give one tin-penny company **** about any of that nonsense.

Yet again we're a point where we can make the lives of black people a little bit better and yet again your standing there going "Okay but we have to talk more." That's what I care about.

Hold onto your hat, but I think we can actually strive to do both. Talk more about it and act accordingly.

I'm not against removing very dubious ties to a less tasteful history, but that doesn't mean I'm all gung-ho for a drunken mob mentality of just destroying the things we don't agree with. As Bob Hoskins once said, "it's good to talk."

 

[JoeMorgue]

Hold onto your hat, but I think we can actually strive to do both.

No we can't because we aren't going to do anything while we have people sitting here doing the whole mealy-mouth "Lookit me handwring!" routine. That routine is EXACTLY why they statues are still up.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

No we can't because we aren't going to do anything while we have people sitting here doing the whole mealy-mouth "Lookit me handwring!" routine. That routine is EXACTLY why they statues are still up.

Well if you want to get technical, you're not going to change anything by sitting on the ISF talking to me about hand-wringing, either, mate.

I don't know what this obsession you have with hand-wringing is, but my hands are calmly typing away on this laptop. We always have time to talk about these things, we're members of a forum, it's literally what we do.

By all means, you can go out and tear whatever you want down, I won't stop you, but I might ask you a few questions about it when you get back.

 

[catsmate]

In 1895, when the statue of Colston was erected in 1895 175 years after his death. That's the same year that Oscar Wilde was arrested for homosexuality and the Army was attacking the Ashanti Empire in modern day Ghana and slaughtering them into submission.

Appropriate that it was thrown in the dock as at least 20,000 of his ‘cargo’ died and their bodies thrown in to the sea.

I'm sure the death rate was within the level allowed by law.

The acceptable death rate, for those of you not familiar with British history and the "Triangular Trade", set at 2% by parliament in the Slave Trade Act 1788, resulting from the Wilberforce Committee.
This act set limits on the number of slaves a ship could carry (1.67 per ton).

Generally the space allocated was:
Adult male: six feet x sixteen inches
Adult female:, five feet x sixteen inches
Adolescent male: five feet x fourteen inches
Adolescent female: four feet six x twelve inches

A crowd has climbed onto the statue of colonial King Léopold II in Brussels chanting “murderer” and waving the flag of the Democratic Republic of Congo

It's hard to argue with that.
Well actually it's impossible given the history of Belgium in the Congo, and the unwillingness of Belgians to admit their past.
I wonder where Michel H is?

 

[Meadmaker]

I don't give one tin-penny company **** about any of that nonsense.

Yet again we're a point where we can make the lives of black people a little bit better and yet again your standing there going "Okay but we have to talk more." That's what I care about.

Well, a problem with your posts, consistently, is that you don't give a tin-penny whatever about anything except your very narrow interests.

However, those who create policy have to be broader than that, and those of us who discuss these issues as a hobby sometimes consider the broader implications.

Nevertheless, I support removing most statues of Robert E. Lee and other Confederate notables, but I will continue to discuss broader issues around when, how, and which statues ought to removed, with or without your tin-pennies.

 

[catsmate]

Good on 'em!

For those who don't know why:

Congo Free State

A genocide for which Belgium has never adequately paid.

Of course, the U.S. has never adequately paid for several genocides either (Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, etc.).

Listen to the yell of Leopold's ghost,
Burning in Hell for his hand-maimed host.
Hear how the demons chuckle and yell,
Cutting his hands off, down in Hell.

ETA: I probably should add that amputation of the right hand was a common "punishment" in Leopold's genocidal slave state. And also a measure to ensure the Force Publique, native Janissaries, didn't waste ammunition

 

[JoeMorgue]

I hope if any of you every get into a car accident the paramedics spend 20 minutes debating about whether or car is a coupe or a sedan before rescuing you.

 

[catsmate]

I'm getting too old for this, but if anyone wants to come to New Hampshire and take down a few Franklin Pierce statues, I certainly won't stand in your way.

Franklin_Pierce^WP

Ah, the Man Without A Chin.

 

[Meadmaker]

You keep mentioning this insurance on 20,000 people killed and thrown into the sea; do you have a source for that? It strikes me that the insurance company marketing that particular policy must have gone broke.

In the Wikipedia article about the statue of Edward Colston it says that more than 20,000 African men died during the voyage. I think Captain Swoop has translated "died during the voyage" into "killed and thrown into the sea".

Not completely unfairly. Surely the slavers were responsible for their deaths, but I think the words paint an inaccurate picture.

Their lawyers weren't as detailed and verbose as we are today, but I'm guessing that even then the insurance policies refused to pay in cases where the deaths were deliberate. Even back then I'm sure that insurance companies had some way of protecting themselves against people who would deliberately create a coverable insurance event.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

I hope if any of you every get into a car accident the paramedic spend 20 minutes debating about whether or car is a coupe or a sedan before rescuing you.

Totally the same thing as what we're discussing.

I often wonder why we even have a forum, since nobody is interested in having an actual discussion that doesn't involve stone-throwing and petty squabbles. Do you all act like this in person, or just on forums?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Put it back. It's important Bristol isn't allowed to whitewash it's past and avoid scrutiny.

How is tearing down a statue of a slave trader avoiding scrutiny of Bristol's past? Couldn't scrutiny better be served by, say, a memorial to the slaves? Or, as I've said previously, a statue of important black people from history? My suggestion was the men who created and led the Bristol bus boycott - it's still the history of the town, it's appropriate because it replaces a racist with people who campaigned against racism, and it's filling a space emptied by a protest with a statue to people who instigated a protest.

 

[catsmate]

The highlighted seems particularly ... I don't think 'ironic' really covers it.

Not really, he was (to use the tired phrase) a man of his times. Remember the Atlantic Slave Trade was regulated by law, laws debated in, and voted by, the Mother of Parliaments.

 

[Thermal]

*Looks at the black community*

Sorry, guess the statues have to stay up. The white folk ain't done talking about where the line goes.

It will be a hundred years from now and in the discussion we'll being swapping out the perfectly spherical statues in a trolley problem piece until no original piece remains over an infinite plane of uniform gravity in a frictionless vacuum that's not technically in the Champagne region of France......and the goddamn statutes will still be there in real life.

How about simply "those who made great strides towards freedom and equality, even if incomplete and imperfect, versus those who made great efforts to reduce equality and freedom"?

Doesn't seem to be that hard.

 

[catsmate]

Next time you guys sing 'Amazing Grace', remember who wrote it!

A man who realised the evils of slavery? Who campaigned to end it? Who lived to see the trade banned by a law he'd helped create?

 

[JoeMorgue]

How about simply "those who made great strides towards freedom and equality, even if incomplete and imperfect, versus those who made great efforts to reduce equality and freedom"?

Doesn't seem to be that hard.

It is not hard. Yet people seem determined to make it so and pretend like that determination has no negative consequences.