Cont: The Trump Presidency: Part 22

[Stacyhs]

Everywhere in the world when you get massive social unrest like we're seeing you get violence. It's always the way some people react. It just is.

You seem to be focusing just on the bad stuff. Most of the protesters ARE peaceful. If I'm marching and chanting, holding a banner, and ten blocks away some kids start breaking store windows...what do you expect me to do?

Hate to tell you this, but back in the 1960s in many cities, peaceful protests changed very little. A big city mayor from that era admitted, I think it was in Rochester NY, peaceful protests about discriminatory policing and substandard housing (because the city failed to enforce building codes in low-income neighborhoods) were easy to ignore. A week of rioting, looting and arson forced officials to realize they had to make real changes. They still didn't really want to but they realized they had to.

As Barretta used to say, "And that's the name of that tune."

A week of rioting, looting and arson forced officials to realize they had to make real changes.

And how did looting and rioting change things? Give me examples. Give me evidence of how this made 'real changes'.

 

[Stacyhs]

I'm hard pressed to think of any examples where real change was instituted without at least a little looting and rioting. It's not that those are the key factors, but that it pretty much has to get that bad before anyone is going to listen. Even Dr. King and Ghandi were peaceful leaders of movements that were absolutely ready to burn it all down, and had no qualms about making that crystal clear.
The message that needs to be sent is not "we are protesting peacefully," but "we are protesting peacefully this time."

Give me evidence of this.

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
Can you give me an example where looting and rioting instituted real change?

Hmmm, I'll have to keep the list short, but lets see.

Dutch revolution (156
Something that happened in the Americas starting 1765
French revolution (1789-)
I seem to recall something in Russia 1917 onwards
etc etc

Now I'm not saying all those changes were for the better, but they all happened when a large group of people felt oppressed by their own government over a longer time combined with a usually quite authoritarian leader who totally ignored them in favor of taxing people to fund a rich group of cronies.

I'm not familiar with the Dutch revolution so I'll not comment on that.

As for the others, they're not equivalent to what is happening in the US now. Those were politically, not racially, motivated and affected far more of the population.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Can you give me an example where looting and rioting instituted real change?

Going back in history, the storming of the Bastille kicked off the French Revolution.

Racial clashes during the Civil Rights movement were instrumental in getting the Civil Rights Act in the United States. However, it might be going out on a limb to call them riots.

Civil unrest in Winnipeg in 1919 was an important turning point in the Labour movement in Canada: a major confrontation during a general strike shifted public opinion toward the protestors and away from the establishment

The Stonewall Riots [Wikipedia] in 1969 are largely seen as a turning point for LGBT people in the United States.

The 2011 Vancouver Stanley Cup riot, ignited by the Vancouver Canucks losing the Stanley Cup series to the Boston Bruins, has (probably) led to improved procedures for cities across North America for handling large and unruly crowds in the aftermath of a sporting event.

The Arab Spring caused some changes, but I can't say if they were permanent or for the better.

Sure, it gets attention just like a child throwing a temper tantrum on a plane or in a store gets attention. But does it change anything? Not that I've seen.

I've given some examples above, ones that I can recall from memory, and Giordano has mentioned the Birmingham Riots. I won't ask you to do my homework for me, so if you want additional examples I'll need to do some digging.

Did the riots in Watts in 1964 change anything?

Sadly that one, and the riots in Los Angeles after the police officers were acquitted in the beating of Rodney King probably did not cause long lasting change.

When people destroy things and get violent, the authorities just crack down harder and the negative stereotypes just get reinforced.

Reinforcing negative stereotypes is a real danger any time something big hits the news, be it a terrorist attack, a mass shooting, an extrajudicial killing, or a riot.

Exactly. We don't know for sure what provocateurs are behind this despite Trump, Barr etc. claiming they do.

I haven't seen that borne out by history.

I think the above examples show that, at times, civil disturbances which often include violence against individuals, vandalism against infrastructure, and looting—all aspects of a riot—can indeed cause changes for the better. They might be in the minority, but as far as I'm concerned it can happen.

Please avoid the temptation to special plead your way out of every example presented by me and others. If you do so you risk getting swamped with examples.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

From the board game "Junta"

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I'm not familiar with the Dutch revolution so I'll not comment on that.

As for the others, they're not equivalent to what is happening in the US now. Those were politically, not racially, motivated and affected far more of the population.

They were all cases of a minority ensuring a majority was oppressed where the majority objected violently.
But if you want it to be racially specific, all decolonization riots/revolts that led to the european powers leaving the countries they occupied, the anti apartheid revolt that lasted 30 years?

 

[Aridas]

Trump cancels summit but says he will invite Putin to later G7 event

US president intends to convene 11 nations at later date in push to counter China

Anyone surprised?

To poke elsewhere...

What the arrest of a black CNN journalist on air taught us

The mistake was always to think that it can’t happen here, because it can, it has and – unless we remain aware and vocal – it most certainly will again

Yup. A black reporter who was being filmed was arrested pretty much without remotely valid cause along with the camera crew.

A few blocks away, a white one was treated politely and encouraged.



This is not normal. This is not acceptable.

 

[Cain]

It's time to recycle this ad.

 

[Juniversal]

I'm not familiar with the Dutch revolution so I'll not comment on that.

As for the others, they're not equivalent to what is happening in the US now. Those were politically, not racially, motivated and affected far more of the population.

Wait, how isn't this politically motivated? Do the police not represent the judicial branch? Protesters are essentially advocating for reform and against misconduct and corruption. Is that not a political motivation? Misconduct and corruption negatively affects everyone but effect blacks disproportionately. There is an overarching motivation for racial reconciliation but the greater cause is a political one (to reduce corruption and misconduct).

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Trump hid in a bunker from protesters

He also talked on the phone to Floyd's family, but monologued rather than letting them speak.

 

[timhau]

Trump hid in a bunker from protesters

He also talked on the phone to Floyd's family, but monologued rather than letting them speak.

That must have been a real Downfall moment for those present.

 

[Andy_Ross]

All the external lights that usually illuminate the White House have been turned off and the guard house was set on fire.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Fox News host Laura Ingraham attempted to explain to African-Americans on Thursday night that President Donald Trump can empathize with inequality and police brutality due to his “own experience” with federal investigators during the Russia probe.

And to our African-American fellow citizens, I say this: Given his own experience with an out-of-control FBI and unfair investigation, given all the work on criminal justice reform, President Trump knows how poisonous and out-of-control law enforcement process can be,

https://www.thedailybeast.com/laura...ands-police-violence-because-of-russia-probe?

 

[TheSupermeerkat]

Fox News host Laura Ingraham attempted to explain to African-Americans on Thursday night that President Donald Trump can empathize with inequality and police brutality due to his “own experience” with federal investigators during the Russia probe.



https://www.thedailybeast.com/laura...ands-police-violence-because-of-russia-probe?

If that doesn't win them over, I don't know what will. Now I think about it, Mueller did murder one of Trump's children via choking.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Trump Tweeted on Mar 20, 2014

It's almost like the United States has no President - we are a rudderless ship heading for a major disaster. Good luck everyone!

 

[quadraginta]

Trump cancels summit but says he will invite Putin to later G7 event

US president intends to convene 11 nations at later date in push to counter China

Anyone surprised?

To poke elsewhere...

What the arrest of a black CNN journalist on air taught us

The mistake was always to think that it can’t happen here, because it can, it has and – unless we remain aware and vocal – it most certainly will again

Yup. A black reporter who was being filmed was arrested pretty much without remotely valid cause along with the camera crew.
A few blocks away, a white one was treated politely and encouraged.



This is not normal. This is not acceptable.

One take-away from that incident which isn't getting anything like the attention it needs ... it should be repeated to (beaten into the heads of) every single person who defends the police ... is that even though the cops who arrested Jimenez and his crew knew they were being recorded while Jimenez told them they were journalists, showed ID and offered to comply with any instruction to relocate, those cops still hauled them in and later claimed they had no idea who they were and that no indication had been given to them that they were arresting reporters.

Even though they knew they were being recorded!

This is exactly the sort of arrogance, entitlement, and impunity which has led to these protests in the first place.

Not only are facts of no concern to them, clear evidence isn't either. They just deny, obfuscate, and continue with the same bigoted, sociopathic behavior. And the ones who don't stay silent if they aren't vocally supporting the lies of the guilty.

Over and over again. What's that saying about the definition of insanity?

Remember, the Arbery video was released by the killers' defense attorney, who believed it would help them.

These are not isolated incidents, as much as the conservatives who make a career of apologetics would have us believe. It is clear, unquestionable evidence of a disease in the policing culture. Which itself is only a reflection of the disease of the complacent majority who refuse to see the effects of the policies they support while viewing themselves as badly mistreated any time they are inconvenienced.

 

[Sideroxylon]

One take-away from that incident which isn't getting anything like the attention it needs ... it should be repeated to (beaten into the heads of) every single person who defends the police ... is that even though the cops who arrested Jimenez and his crew knew they were being recorded while Jimenez told them they were journalists, showed ID and offered to comply with any instruction to relocate, those cops still hauled them in and later claimed they had no idea who they were and that no indication had been given to them that they were arresting reporters.

Even though they knew they were being recorded!

This is exactly the sort of arrogance, entitlement, and impunity which has led to these protests in the first place.

Not only are facts of no concern to them, clear evidence isn't either. They just deny, obfuscate, and continue with the same bigoted, sociopathic behavior. And the ones who don't stay silent if they aren't vocally supporting the lies of the guilty.

Over and over again. What's that saying about the definition of insanity?

Remember, the Arbery video was released by the killers' defense attorney, who believed it would help them.

These are not isolated incidents, as much as the conservatives who make a career of apologetics would have us believe. It is clear, unquestionable evidence of a disease in the policing culture. Which itself is only a reflection of the disease of the complacent majority who refuse to see the effects of the policies they support while viewing themselves as badly mistreated any time they are inconvenienced.

It is everywhere. The president down. A whole lot of university debate club wankers in the media and politics well practiced in spinning anything to keep the grift train on the rails. Zero accountability and plenty of gaslighting.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

One take-away from that incident which isn't getting anything like the attention it needs ... it should be repeated to (beaten into the heads of) every single person who defends the police ... is that even though the cops who arrested Jimenez and his crew knew they were being recorded while Jimenez told them they were journalists, showed ID and offered to comply with any instruction to relocate, those cops still hauled them in and later claimed they had no idea who they were and that no indication had been given to them that they were arresting reporters.

Even though they knew they were being recorded!

This is exactly the sort of arrogance, entitlement, and impunity which has led to these protests in the first place.

I mean, Floyd was murdered, on camera, in front of a crowd, and in front of three other police officers. Why would anybody murder someone under those circumstances? Because they're sure they can get away with it.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Hmmm, I'll have to keep the list short, but lets see.

Dutch revolution (156
Something that happened in the Americas starting 1765
French revolution (1789-)
I seem to recall something in Russia 1917 onwards
etc etc

Now I'm not saying all those changes were for the better, but they all happened when a large group of people felt oppressed by their own government over a longer time combined with a usually quite authoritarian leader who totally ignored them in favor of taxing people to fund a rich group of cronies.

I don't know if throwing examples at each others is the best way to go about this. I can certainly list examples of peaceful protests, both big and small, effecting change, too. The Taiwanese democracy protests in 1991, and the protests at the Berlin wall in 1989, for example. I'd rather read research on what peaceful and violent demonstrations tend to accomplish.

AFAIK, peaceful demonstrations often accomplish little by themselves, but can be effective if they cause other people to mobilize and actually change things by, I suppose, lobbying, voting, et cetera.

 

[Cabbage]

Wait, how isn't this politically motivated? Do the police not represent the judicial branch? Protesters are essentially advocating for reform and against misconduct and corruption. Is that not a political motivation? Misconduct and corruption negatively affects everyone but effect blacks disproportionately. There is an overarching motivation for racial reconciliation but the greater cause is a political one (to reduce corruption and misconduct).

Wait, aren't the police part of the executive branch? They enforce the laws, after all.

I do absolutely agree with you about this being politically motivated; I think that's pretty clear. In fact, it's hard to impossible (at least in the current political climate) to be racially motivated without also being politically motivated, I think.