Cont: The Trump Presidency: Part 22

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Roger Ramjets said:
That's where you are wrong. It's sad, but acts of violence are often the only way to make people pay attention. 'Channeling it in constructive ways' is just another way of saying 'don't be uppity so we can ignore you'.
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Blue Mountain said:
Maybe. I'm trying to recall instances in the last few years where streets filled with angry, shouting people effected real change. If they're angry enough and shout loudly enough they might get the attention of people in power.
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There's definitely historic precedent. Violence often precedes change and is a component of revolution. Hopefully this is one of those instances. I don't condone looting and property damage but the protest and violence in and of itself is shining a bright light on our society that may not have come from peace. After all Kaepernick silently took a knee and people lost their minds and steamrolled him but NOW those same people are asking "wHy wOn'T yOu jUsT pRoTeSt pEaCeFuLlY??". :rolleyes:
 
Shall we do the boogaloo?

Minnesota Officials Link Arrested Looters to ‘White Supremacist’ Groups

St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter said most of the arrests made last night were of people from out of state and while “there’s a group of folks that are sad and mourning,” he said “there seems to be another group that are using Mr. Floyd’s death as a cover to create havoc.”

Department of Safety Commissioner John Harrington said they are contact-tracing the arrested and added that an investigation is underway about white nationalist groups posting online to encourage their members to use the protests as a cover to create chaos.

He said some of the 40 arrests made in the Twin Cities Friday night were of people linked to white supremacist groups and organized crime.
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https://www.courthousenews.com/minn...arrested-looters-to-white-supremacist-groups/

Also: White Extremists Terrorize and Loot: 10 Videos of Destruction Black People Will Be Blamed For

So I would encourage Trump to send in the National Guard to catch these criminals. because they are not part of his rage-fantasy enemy called ANTIFA. They are MAGA hats. That would be fun to see him try to excuse them..."they we just getting coffee!"
 
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Juniversal said:
There's definitely historic precedent. Violence often precedes change and is a component of revolution. Hopefully this is one of those instances. I don't condone looting and property damage but the protest and violence in and of itself is shining a bright light on our society that may not have come from peace...
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Sadly, I agree. And this same behavior seems to happen in every country. Angry people always react this way. And, the older I get, the more I am forced to admit, it often works. A former big city mayor admitted the same thing. Protests about bad policing, substandard housing (because the city would not enforce building codes) back in the late 1960s were easy to ignore. But after a week of widespread looting and arson, the city knew it had to make fundamental changes.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
I agree. But this should apply to all looting and damage, not just by poor people who see no other effective way to vent their anger and frustration. If the people with real power hadn't been so busy looting the economy and damaging the environment, perhaps the people affected by it wouldn't be so angry and frustrated.
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You are assuming those doing the looting are 'poor people'. They could just as well be thugs simply taking advantage and stealing.

That's where you are wrong. It's sad, but acts of violence are often the only way to make people pay attention.
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Getting people to pay attention is one thing. But the attention they get from this kind of behavior is negative. That does them no good. It simply reinforces already held prejudices.

'Channeling it in constructive ways' is just another way of saying 'don't be uppity so we can ignore you'.
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That may be your interpretation but is not mine....and I'd bet not that of a majority of people.
 
In other news
Mayor Bill de Blasio's daughter, Chiara, was among the 345 protesters arrested Saturday night, according to NYPD sources. Chiara de Blasio was arrested about 10:30 p.m. Saturday for unlawful assembly. The 25-year-old was one of about 100 people who refused to leave the roadway when advised by police. She was given a desk appearance ticket. ABC News
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If that jerk in the White House values his front teeth, he'll keep his mouth shut! ;)
 
Blue Mountain said:
Maybe. I'm trying to recall instances in the last few years where streets filled with angry, shouting people effected real change. If they're angry enough and shout loudly enough they might get the attention of people in power.
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Can you give me an example where looting and rioting instituted real change?
Real destruction, on the other hand, along with pictures seen around the world of buildings going up in flames, certainly does get people's attention.
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Sure, it gets attention just like a child throwing a temper tantrum on a plane or in a store gets attention. But does it change anything? Not that I've seen. Did the riots in Watts in 1964 change anything? When people destroy things and get violent, the authorities just crack down harder and the negative stereotypes jus get reinforced.

Unfortunately right now it's really tough to say who's lighting the fires and looting the shops. Agents provocateurs? Opportunists? Even some of the protesters themselves? It seems to me there are two separate groups at work here: people protesting police behaviour, and opportunists using the protests as a cover for creating mayhem. The protests are certainly legitimate. The destruction is lamentable.
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Exactly. We don't know for sure what provocateurs are behind this despite Trump, Barr etc. claiming they do.

I want to be clear here: I do not applaud the people who are starting fires and looting shops. They are criminals and should be dealt with by the law. But in a perverse way these bad actors are drawing world-wide attention to the situation and may help speed reform.
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I haven't seen that borne out by history.
 
Stacyhs said:
Can you give me an example where looting and rioting instituted real change?...
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Everywhere in the world when you get massive social unrest like we're seeing you get violence. It's always the way some people react. It just is.

You seem to be focusing just on the bad stuff. Most of the protesters ARE peaceful. If I'm marching and chanting, holding a banner, and ten blocks away some kids start breaking store windows...what do you expect me to do?

Hate to tell you this, but back in the 1960s in many cities, peaceful protests changed very little. A big city mayor from that era admitted, I think it was in Rochester NY, peaceful protests about discriminatory policing and substandard housing (because the city failed to enforce building codes in low-income neighborhoods) were easy to ignore. A week of rioting, looting and arson forced officials to realize they had to make real changes. They still didn't really want to but they realized they had to.

As Barretta used to say, "And that's the name of that tune." ;)
 
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Stacyhs said:
Can you give me an example where looting and rioting instituted real change?
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I'm hard pressed to think of any examples where real change was instituted without at least a little looting and rioting. It's not that those are the key factors, but that it pretty much has to get that bad before anyone is going to listen. Even Dr. King and Ghandi were peaceful leaders of movements that were absolutely ready to burn it all down, and had no qualms about making that crystal clear.

The message that needs to be sent is not "we are protesting peacefully," but "we are protesting peacefully this time."
 
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newyorkguy said:
Everywhere in the world when you get massive social unrest like we're seeing you get violence. It's always the way some people react. It just is.

You seem to be focusing just on the bad stuff. Most of the protesters ARE peaceful. If I'm marching and chanting, holding a banner, and ten blocks away some kids start breaking store windows...what do you expect me to do?

Hate to tell you this, but back in the 1960s in many cities, peaceful protests changed very little. A big city mayor from that era admitted, I think it was in Rochester NY, peaceful protests about discriminatory policing and substandard housing (because the city failed to enforce building codes in low-income neighborhoods) were easy to ignore. A week of rioting, looting and arson forced officials to realize they had to make real changes. They still didn't really want to but they realized they had to.

As Barretta used to say, "And that's the name of that tune." ;)
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As a bit of a counterpoint, what was the cost in the larger political picture? If I understand it correctly, the local gains were counter-balanced by a significant shift in public opinion towards the suddenly "Law and Order" Republicans that has had far reaching, though less obviously visible consequences.
 
Stacyhs said:
Can you give me an example where looting and rioting instituted real change?

Sure, it gets attention just like a child throwing a temper tantrum on a plane or in a store gets attention. But does it change anything? Not that I've seen. Did the riots in Watts in 1964 change anything? When people destroy things and get violent, the authorities just crack down harder and the negative stereotypes jus get reinforced.

[snip]
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Birmingham Riots:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_riot_of_1963

As to the outcome of the Watts riots? They led to the formation of the
McCone Commission. To quote Wikipedia:

McCone Commission
A commission under Governor Pat Brown investigated the riots, known as the McCone Commission, and headed by former CIA director John A. McCone. It released a 101-page report on December 2, 1965 entitled Violence in the City—An End or a Beginning?: A Report by the Governor's Commission on the Los Angeles Riots, 1965.

The McCone Commission identified the root causes of the riots to be high unemployment, poor schools, and related inferior living conditions that were endured by African Americans in Watts. Recommendations for addressing these problems included "emergency literacy and preschool programs, improved police-community ties, increased low-income housing, more job-training projects, upgraded health-care services, more efficient public transportation, and many more."

So they did capture the attention of the highest levels of state government and resulted in official recommendations for positive change. However, brace yourself for a surprise, ”Most of these recommendations were never implemented..”

So violence sometimes does change things for the better. Sometimes it doesn’t (not materially). But it seems to have a better score on changing things than bland vanilla protests.
 
Aridas said:
As a bit of a counterpoint, what was the cost in the larger political picture? If I understand it correctly, the local gains were counter-balanced by a significant shift in public opinion towards the suddenly "Law and Order" Republicans that has had far reaching, though less obviously visible consequences.
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The Southern Strategy wasn't focused on people upset about the riots.
 
Trump Tweet:

"It's almost like the United States has no President - we are a rudderless ship heading for a major disaster. Good luck everyone!" -March 19, 2014
 
Aridas said:
I will easily concede that there was plenty more than just the violence in play, but... removing it from the picture also seems like it will skew understanding.
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Sure. That's what I'm saying as well. It was a very angry and violent time from which arose a great deal of civil good, and I'm not sure we could have had the one without the other.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Sure. That's what I'm saying as well. It was a very angry and violent time from which arose a great deal of civil good, and I'm not sure we could have had the one without the other.
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I find myself wanting to lament a bit. "Why aren't these things ever truly simple?"
 
Aridas said:
I find myself wanting to lament a bit. "Why aren't these things ever truly simple?"
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According to republicans, they are simple. First thing you do is identify the bogeyman:

Impeachment: Democrats and Obama and Hilary
Pandemic: China (and Obama)
Police Brutality Protests: Antifa (and Far Left something). Originally Colin Kapernick.
 
Stacyhs said:
Can you give me an example where looting and rioting instituted real change?
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Hmmm, I'll have to keep the list short, but lets see.

Dutch revolution (1568-)
Something that happened in the Americas starting 1765
French revolution (1789-)
I seem to recall something in Russia 1917 onwards
etc etc

Now I'm not saying all those changes were for the better, but they all happened when a large group of people felt oppressed by their own government over a longer time combined with a usually quite authoritarian leader who totally ignored them in favor of taxing people to fund a rich group of cronies.
 
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