Buying a TV while Black

[tyr_13]

I can imagine several ways the return might have been a problem:

Oh, I can do these in.

- No receipt

Nope. The membership number will easily pull up the receipt, and this is trivial to find for recent purchases with as easily searched terms as the brand, sn, size, item number, date of purchase, of an uncommonly purchased item. That shirt which could have any number of descriptions from last season is a pain, a tv from that year from a non-business is simple.

- Item is unboxed

This is not a valid reason to refuse a return on anything besides software. It would be a horrible policy for televisions especially. Many large tv boxes are even designed in such a way that they can be opened and closed without breaking any seals or tape. (Those white or black plastic inserts at the base? Pinch them in, pull them out, and the top box comes completely off leaving the base box with the tv standing there.)

- Item has damage

Only if they strongly believe the member damaged it themselves. A non-trivial number of large tvs will be damaged in shipping to the club or stocking them on the shelves. Lifting from the wrong part does it pretty easily, which is why even if you are strong enough to lift the big tv yourself, you should have a second person just to avoid torquing the box and breaking the screen.

- Item is missing parts

This is a valid reason to refuse a return, but usually only temporarily, and only for non-packaging parts. Was this tv even opened?

- No item in box

This is a valid reason to refuse a return. For smaller items it often happens as a mistake. This would also be trivial to prove so is exceedingly unlikely in this case.

- Customer becomes belligerent when clerk proposes to look inside the box to confirm the item and all parts are being returned

That happens, but you just keep going. Again, trivial to show if that happened.

- Customer wants cash but the store refunds credit card purchases back to the card

This one happens all the time, as does paying with a check and trying to return before the check actually cleared. The policy is to return the money the way it was paid originally or store credit. Another one that happens is people wanted us to put the money on a different card because they didn't have the old one anymore. This is actually not possible to do with the systems Sam's Club uses because the card companies put it in the use terms. People would insist we could do it, but it wasn't actually possible. One of the worst things to explain, because all the business members would insist they could do it at their businesses. I have no idea if that was true for them, but it absolutely was not possible for us, even accidentally.

- Customer wants a refund but the store is only offering store credit

See above, policy is not for store credit unless they can't put it back the way it came.

- There's no problem with the return, but the clerk is being a douchebag

Very possible. I've had to clean up returns where the first associate just decided it had to be a scam for no articulate reason, or a demonstrably false reason. Several members were very happy with the time and effort I'd spend proving them right.

- There's no problem with the return, but the clerk is being a racist douchebag

Also very possible, and I've had to clean up returns where the first associate was just being a racist douchebag, and made more sales when the first associate was just being too racist a douchebag to take the time to explain things adequately to people not of their race, or primary language. I don't speak Spanish, but the Spanish speaking members would always find me.

- There's no problem with the return, but the customer is getting belligerent due to misplaced anger over previous incidents

Possible, but pretty easy to show. See my other post about standard security processes (mostly to protect the member) can be seen as a personal affront.

Etc. It's a long list. I haven't even gotten into all the variations on (racist) cop hanging around the returns counter instigating things.

I assume the grievance described in the suit is legitimate, but I'm still curious about how it got to that point at the returns counter.

It is puzzling, but not outside the realm of the very possible.

When our club was closing, we had several extreme angry members, high emotions with the associates, and towards the end a cop standing right by us at the Membership desk. There were people being much more belligerent while associates and management were literally crying. No one was cuffed.

EDIT: I don't think I mentioned it yet, but an electronics associate MUST check in electronics returns. This includes inspecting for damage, completeness, and troubleshooting so the member doesn't get another product that doesn't solve their problem (the number of returns I saved by informing people you don't get HD through a coaxial cable or composite (RCA) cables is large).

 

[theprestige]

Agreed, these are all possible issues with the return, but am I right to say that we don't have a source credibly claiming that any specific one of these actually occurred?

I think you're right to say that. I don't know for sure.

My understanding is that we don't have a source credibly claiming *anything* about what exactly happened at the returns counter, prior to the events seen in the video.

 

[theprestige]

Oh, I can do these in.



Nope. The membership number will easily pull up the receipt, and this is trivial to find for recent purchases with as easily searched terms as the brand, sn, size, item number, date of purchase, of an uncommonly purchased item. That shirt which could have any number of descriptions from last season is a pain, a tv from that year from a non-business is simple.



This is not a valid reason to refuse a return on anything besides software. It would be a horrible policy for televisions especially. Many large tv boxes are even designed in such a way that they can be opened and closed without breaking any seals or tape. (Those white or black plastic inserts at the base? Pinch them in, pull them out, and the top box comes completely off leaving the base box with the tv standing there.)



Only if they strongly believe the member damaged it themselves. A non-trivial number of large tvs will be damaged in shipping to the club or stocking them on the shelves. Lifting from the wrong part does it pretty easily, which is why even if you are strong enough to lift the big tv yourself, you should have a second person just to avoid torquing the box and breaking the screen.



This is a valid reason to refuse a return, but usually only temporarily, and only for non-packaging parts. Was this tv even opened?



This is a valid reason to refuse a return. For smaller items it often happens as a mistake. This would also be trivial to prove so is exceedingly unlikely in this case.



That happens, but you just keep going. Again, trivial to show if that happened.



This one happens all the time, as does paying with a check and trying to return before the check actually cleared. The policy is to return the money the way it was paid originally or store credit. Another one that happens is people wanted us to put the money on a different card because they didn't have the old one anymore. This is actually not possible to do with the systems Sam's Club uses because the card companies put it in the use terms. People would insist we could do it, but it wasn't actually possible. One of the worst things to explain, because all the business members would insist they could do it at their businesses. I have no idea if that was true for them, but it absolutely was not possible for us, even accidentally.



See above, policy is not for store credit unless they can't put it back the way it came.



Very possible. I've had to clean up returns where the first associate just decided it had to be a scam for no articulate reason, or a demonstrably false reason. Several members were very happy with the time and effort I'd spend proving them right.



Also very possible, and I've had to clean up returns where the first associate was just being a racist douchebag, and made more sales when the first associate was just being too racist a douchebag to take the time to explain things adequately to people not of their race, or primary language. I don't speak Spanish, but the Spanish speaking members would always find me.



Possible, but pretty easy to show. See my other post about standard security processes (mostly to protect the member) can be seen as a personal affront.



It is puzzling, but not outside the realm of the very possible.

When our club was closing, we had several extreme angry members, high emotions with the associates, and towards the end a cop standing right by us at the Membership desk. There were people being much more belligerent while associates and management were literally crying. No one was cuffed.

EDIT: I don't think I mentioned it yet, but an electronics associate MUST check in electronics returns. This includes inspecting for damage, completeness, and troubleshooting so the member doesn't get another product that doesn't solve their problem (the number of returns I saved by informing people you don't get HD through a coaxial cable or composite (RCA) cables is large).

Thanks for the clarifications and insights. Much appreciated.

 

[carlitos]

I must have been missing the "without receipt" qualifier from this incident in the several articles I skimmed (I'm not sure how I got sucked into caring about this incident in the fist place).

When I worked retail, we'd be very skeptical about giving a refund on a high dollar value item without a receipt. But nowadays, I'd think all of that stuff is usually captured by the store when the purchase is made. The scanned TV barcode, the customer name from their credit card, and the time and date of the transaction all go into the store's database. I guess the guy could have paid cash.

Sam's Club is a membership store, so all of your purchases are tracked to your account automatically. You have to provide your membership info at checkout for this purpose.

 

[tyr_13]

Sam's Club is a membership store, so all of your purchases are tracked to your account automatically. You have to provide your membership info at checkout for this purpose.

For an item still in the POS, it is literally as easy as typing in their membership number, going to the purchases screen, and typing in the item number. Then waiting the 30 seconds unjustifiably old/bad system takes to bring up the purchase. It isn't actually the receipt, but it's good enough for the return because the receipt number is there, and the register system will have the rest. If information is needed from the receipt that is not there, the receipt number can be used in a different even older MSDOS prompt system to bring up a copy of the receipt going back about two years.

EDIT: This will also show if and what items from that purchase have already been returned.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Sam's Club is a membership store, so all of your purchases are tracked to your account automatically. You have to provide your membership info at checkout for this purpose.

Yeah, I figured that out after posting. The name Sam's Club should have tipped me off, but it wasn't until I read tyr's post above that I realized this.

 

[Myriad]

Heh. Lowes used to accept returns unconditionally. Even when a return was an obvious scam the associates weren't allowed to refuse it. Five gallon drums of deck stain would be returned full of water. Christmas trees, natural and artificial, would be returned for a full refund, in January.

They've changed their return policies since then.

 

[Thermal]

One of my favorites was seeing a customer try to return a toilet in its box at Home Depot. The associate opened the cellophane taped box, and it contained the old toilet. Guy said 'put that down as reason for return, used'. The return was denied.

 

[theprestige]

One of my favorites was seeing a customer try to return a toilet in its box at Home Depot. The associate opened the cellophane taped box, and it contained the old toilet. Guy said 'put that down as reason for return, used'. The return was denied.

Now imagine someone doing that with an old TV in the new TV box, trying to bully the clerk out of doing their due diligence, getting the police called on them for their belligerence, escalating, and calling the whole thing racism because he happens to be black.

 

[Cavemonster]

I can imagine several ways the return might have been a problem:

- No receipt

- Item is unboxed

- Item has damage

- Item is missing parts

- No item in box

- Customer becomes belligerent when clerk proposes to look inside the box to confirm the item and all parts are being returned

- Customer wants cash but the store refunds credit card purchases back to the card

- Customer wants a refund but the store is only offering store credit

- There's no problem with the return, but the clerk is being a douchebag

- There's no problem with the return, but the clerk is being a racist douchebag

- There's no problem with the return, but the customer is getting belligerent due to misplaced anger over previous incidents

Etc. It's a long list. I haven't even gotten into all the variations on (racist) cop hanging around the returns counter instigating things.

I assume the grievance described in the suit is legitimate, but I'm still curious about how it got to that point at the returns counter.

I suppose if you were actually curious, you might have read Sam's club return policy which YOU linked to which makes it clears several of these things are not issues.

But you're not curious, you're just JAQing off.

 

[theprestige]

I suppose if you were actually curious, you might have read Sam's club return policy which YOU linked to which makes it clears several of these things are not issues.

It seems to me that all of those things are potentially issues, even under the Sam's Club policy.

But you're not curious, you're just JAQing off.

... He said, in response to a post which didn't contain a single question.

¯\(º_o)/¯

ETA: Here's an actual question for you.

Aren't you even the least bit curious, just in terms of having a complete story, what was the nature of the dispute at the returns counter, that resulted in the cops showing up and throwing beatings at people?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I know people that do that for a living.

They're called actuaries.

Oh now I'm sad.

 

[Stout]

Heh. Lowes used to accept returns unconditionally. Even when a return was an obvious scam the associates weren't allowed to refuse it. Five gallon drums of deck stain would be returned full of water. Christmas trees, natural and artificial, would be returned for a full refund, in January.

They've changed their return policies since then.

I used to work for a department store that had one of those no questions asked return policies. Employees were told to issue a slight challenge like "This brand isn't and has never been sold by this store" and if the customer didn't leave then either issure a refund based on the price tag, or make them an offer.

One big scam was in fragrances. A customer buys ( or steals ) a plastic wrapped bod with a bottle of perfume in it, somehow opens the plastic wrapper. takes out the box and bottle, removes the bottle and replaces it with something of similar weight as the bottle, usually a rock, reseals the plastic wrapper and returns the box with the rock in it for a full refund.

Sales associates wouldn't examine the wrapping and issue a full refund. Later someone else some back with the actual bottle of perfume and returns it saying " I tried it for a week and I hate it, sorry I threw out the box" and gets a refund.

Stealing things and returning them was par for the course.

Then there was the buy an expensive item of clothing, wear it for a while then return it for a refund with the insistence that" No, it's never been worn" scam.

Thieves and scammers knew how store security worked and store security knew that thieves and scammers knew how store security worked so there was this constant dance with both groups trying to stay one step ahead of each other.

Got a really obvious thief scoping the place out ? Don't pay too that person because they're a distraction for the real thief whose no too far behind. Sometimes store security would act and look like thieves so the real thieves would relax and ply their trade confident that the other thief will have store securities attention.

 

[Robin]

I am not sure that the reason for the altercation is important. We know that it was not a fraudulent return because the police took possession of the television at the shop and returned it to the Grays. If it had been an old television set that they were trying to fraudulently return then the police would have kept it as evidence.

So here is an idea. The Grays come in with the television to return it for the reasons they give, because of the false accusation by the store that the son was trying to steal it. They also say they want to cancel their membership.

The on duty manager comes out to see if he can sort the issue out, given it is a long time member. They start to discuss the issue and it turns into an argument about who did what and why it was unreasonable. The argument becomes heated.

 

[I Am The Scum]

The reason for the return is about as relevant as the color of the guy's socks. Nobody has a reasonable explanation for how or why the police got involved.

Why is the violence being questioned less than shopping habits?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Now imagine someone doing that with an old TV in the new TV box, trying to bully the clerk out of doing their due diligence, getting the police called on them for their belligerence, escalating, and calling the whole thing racism because he happens to be black.

Bingo. Now imagine a society that is full of people who are either white and trying desperately hard to be as non-racist toward blacks as possible (and distance themselves from their ancestors in this regard), giving them the benefit of the doubt automatically whenever they claim to be the victims of a racist incident OR black people who automatically side with other black people in such claims.

Now, if your society is that - or even vaguely like that, do we think such false claims become more, or less likely?

Hmm.

Heh. Lowes used to accept returns unconditionally. Even when a return was an obvious scam the associates weren't allowed to refuse it. Five gallon drums of deck stain would be returned full of water. Christmas trees, natural and artificial, would be returned for a full refund, in January.

They've changed their return policies since then.

L.L. Bean recently changed a very unconditional return system too. These are all symptoms of moving from a homogeneous, high trust society to... this mess.

 

[cmikes]

Heh. Lowes used to accept returns unconditionally. Even when a return was an obvious scam the associates weren't allowed to refuse it. Five gallon drums of deck stain would be returned full of water. Christmas trees, natural and artificial, would be returned for a full refund, in January.

They've changed their return policies since then.

I used to work at Hills Department Stores (regional chain, they went out of business decades ago) and covered the service desk on occasion. The most frustrating part of the job was telling a customer that I couldn't accept a return because of our store policies, having them complain to a manager, then being told to process the return anyway. Everyone knew that management would accept anything, but we still had to go through the motions every time.

 

[theprestige]

The reason for the return is about as relevant as the color of the guy's socks. Nobody has a reasonable explanation for how or why the police got involved.

Why is the violence being questioned less than shopping habits?

What would questioning the violence look like?

Either the cops had a good reason to intervene, or they didn't. Unless you're already certain they had no good reason, then it seems like some inquiry into the circumstances around the return is appropriate.

 

[I Am The Scum]

What would questioning the violence look like?

"Hey, why'd the cops beat those two up? Doesn't look like they were committing a crime or anything."

 

[Thermal]

What would questioning the violence look like?

I think it would look like a black guy and his grandma asking "Why are you doing this to me?!?"

Either the cops had a good reason to intervene, or they didn't. Unless you're already certain they had no good reason, then it seems like some inquiry into the circumstances around the return is appropriate.

Agreed. As skeptics, kind of a no-brainer