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Buying a TV while Black

Ah, now I'm picking up the sarcasm, too.

Is there any particular reason you feel that incivility is your best approach to this incident?

I see that mere reference to the fact that racists exist now constitutes incivility. It is therefore now possible to exclude any discussion of racism from civil discourse. How very Orwellian.

Dave
 
As a former cop could you please apologise for your ingrained racism. How many times did you pull over/stop/harass and arrest an innocent person of colour?

Following on from that how many times did you "explode into violence" and wail on an innocent black person?

Don't try and weasel out of this we want answers, after all "The cops are racist, their basic statistics prove it" and you were a cop and a cop, like a tiger, don't change it's stripes.

Y'know what I think there is mileage in a new thread for this question.

Where did I mention race? Perhaps you should read what I actually wrote instead of going off in all directions with your guns blazing.

BTW - I have nothing to apologize for. In a near 25 year career I had one complaint laid against me and that was by a bar bouncer who complained that I embarrassed him in front of his fellow bouncers and bar patrons as I loudly told him that he was causing too many problems with his heavy handedness and should be fired. He was fired.
His two fellow bouncers agreed with me and gave statements to that effect. Eleven patrons who saw what happened and heard the exchange also offered their support to me but only three statements were taken. I was cleared. The bouncer remained fired and I continued to be welcomed during my solo walk-throughs of the bar by both staff and patrons.

Since you asked - as a member of Royal Canadian Mounted Police there were very few black people in the areas I was stationed. I only arrested one Afro-American for being part of a two man hit team who kidnapped a pimp out of Vancouver for the purposes of killing him. Both surrendered peacefully when I arrested the pair of them at a campsite with the pimp in the trunk of their stereotypical green Lincoln Continental (yep - they were even dressed like they came directly from central casting!).

I did work in small towns with large populations of First Nation peoples though. I usually had no trouble carrying out my duties as I earned respect through open and honest communication and using force only when necessary. I also coached youth hockey, basketball, baseball, and joined whatever local service clubs were operating in the towns. That way the community got to know me as an individual outside of my job.
Trust me - when it is 1:00 AM and the local bar is getting out and 80-100 well-oiled patrons are leaving - I better have the respect of the populace because many times I was by myself and my nearest backup was at home in bed.

I know the job. I know when my fellow officers become too much like the orcs they are supposed to be protecting everyone from.

The idea of "command authority" and demanding instant compliance has wormed its way into too many police officers. Some out of no proper training - some because they are being trained that way.
Whatever the reason - the idea of police officers treating each situation like it is a life threatening ordeal that they will be lucky to escape from alive is becoming a terrible mindset I see too often.
As a cop you need to keep calm and de-escalate situations. Just because you have superior numbers does not mean that you should not worry about the situation escalating into a violent takedown.
Police officers should see violent takedowns for such offences as described in the OP as being a sign of poor policing - not as a victory for the "good guys".

Edited to add: Just in case anybody has gotten the idea that I was working in some sort of Andy Griffith's town of Mayberry - during my career I was shot at twice and stabbed once resulting in a collapsed lung. Although they were small towns - they were not idyllic by any means. One town that had an area population of 600 people had nine murders in one year when I was there in the 1980s.
 
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Lot of white people in this thread going [Dave Chappelle white person voice] Oh, dear, there is something not right. There must be more to the story.

Yeah. There isn't. Dollars to dog turds that if the TV purchaser was white, the cops help him carry it out to his car.

He was returning the TV. Why would anyone help him carry it out?
 
Where did I mention race? Perhaps you should read what I actually wrote instead of going off in all directions with your guns blazing.

BTW - I have nothing to apologize for. In a near 25 year career I had one complaint laid against me and that was by a bar bouncer who complained that I embarrassed him in front of his fellow bouncers and bar patrons as I loudly told him that he was causing too many problems with his heavy handedness and should be fired. He was fired.
His two fellow bouncers agreed with me and gave statements to that effect. Eleven patrons who saw what happened and heard the exchange also offered their support to me but only three statements were taken. I was cleared. The bouncer remained fired and I continued to be welcomed during my solo walk-throughs of the bar by both staff and patrons.

Since you asked - as a member of Royal Canadian Mounted Police there were very few black people in the areas I was stationed. I only arrested one Afro-American for being part of a two man hit team who kidnapped a pimp out of Vancouver for the purposes of killing him. Both surrendered peacefully when I arrested the pair of them at a campsite with the pimp in the trunk of their stereotypical green Lincoln Continental (yep - they were even dressed like they came directly from central casting!).

I did work in small towns with large populations of First Nation peoples though. I usually had no trouble carrying out my duties as I earned respect through open and honest communication and using force only when necessary. I also coached youth hockey, basketball, baseball, and joined whatever local service clubs were operating in the towns. That way the community got to know me as an individual outside of my job.
Trust me - when it is 1:00 AM and the local bar is getting out and 80-100 well-oiled patrons are leaving - I better have the respect of the populace because many times I was by myself and my nearest backup was at home in bed.

I know the job. I know when my fellow officers become too much like the orcs they are supposed to be protecting everyone from.

The idea of "command authority" and demanding instant compliance has wormed its way into too many police officers. Some out of no proper training - some because they are being trained that way.
Whatever the reason - the idea of police officers treating each situation like it is a life threatening ordeal that they will be lucky to escape from alive is becoming a terrible mindset I see too often.
As a cop you need to keep calm and de-escalate situations. Just because you have superior numbers does not mean that you should not worry about the situation escalating into a violent takedown.
Police officers should see violent takedowns for such offences as described in the OP as being a sign of poor policing - not as a victory for the "good guys".

Edited to add: Just in case anybody has gotten the idea that I was working in some sort of Andy Griffith's town of Mayberry - during my career I was shot at twice and stabbed once resulting in a collapsed lung. Although they were small towns - they were not idyllic by any means. One town that had an area population of 600 people had nine murders in one year when I was there in the 1980s.

Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to respond.
 
The first thing that came to my mind is that a 65in TV couldn’t fit in a Lexus SUV? I was able to fit a 75in one in my smaller Subaru SUV.

But that’s the only thing that doesn’t make sense. Harassment and assault of blacks doing nothing wrong by police, is SOP in the US.

There's a lot of variation in SUVs to be fair, I can fit a full size under counter kitchen appliance in the back of my Mk2 RAV4 without removing or folding the back seats, you'd struggle to get a single full size suitcase in the back of my wife's 3 door Grand Vitara despite the fact that it's footprint is as large, if not larger.
 
This attitude is every bit as bigoted as the attitude it condemns.


We have arrived at the point where, when we discuss these things, we need one big thread for all of them, not one each, because that would flood the board

Imagine if we were doing the same for airline crashes or botched heart surgery or foodstuffs with pathogens?
 
Seriously. I don't doubt any part of the story.

All I want to know is, what the hell happened between "we went to return the TV" and "four cops beat the crap out of us at the returns counter".

But you're certain it's not just plain racism, right?

And also, while I don't doubt they returned it, I am kinda curious why.

Because they can? I don't think they need to justify it to you, if that's the contract with the vendor. They returned the TV because they can.

Perhaps they thought '**** this, we just don't need the hassle, we'll buy a tv elsewhere', but it doesn't matter. People return TVs without being assaulted by policemen every day




Statistically speaking, racist cops usually hang out at most Sam's Club return counters and beat up most black customers most of the time, but who's counting?

- ponderingturtle, probably


Is anyone counting? Are there official figures? Somehow I doubt it - if shooting people isn't recorded then I doubt a simple beating warrants record.
 
No, I want to see how far this goes before somebody snaps and actually operates a search engine.

And come up with a different source to yours that's reported subtly differently so we can argue about that for ages?

How about you make the claim, you supply the evidence.

"Go google it yourself" is a statement made by a man losing an argument.
 
And come up with a different source to yours that's reported subtly differently so we can argue about that for ages?

How about you make the claim, you supply the evidence.

"Go google it yourself" is a statement made by a man losing an argument.

This is about the actual existence of alternate stories, ones with more information than the one provided in the OP. I just said they exist and before I could respond I got accused of "making up and pulling out of your arse!"

An alternate link was even provided by another poster before that accusation was leveled.

Yes, it's industrial grade stupid.
 
I don't go down the rabbit hole with trolls. You won't get any further responses.

Whoa ! Witty rejoinder, absolutely devastating.

So I'll just put you down for "What statement ?"

Even though it's been linked to twice in this thread.
 
This is about the actual existence of alternate stories, ones with more information than the one provided in the OP. I just said they exist and before I could respond I got accused of "making up and pulling out of your arse!"

An alternate link was even provided by another poster before that accusation was leveled.


But rather than just post the link you went all 'google it yourself'. As I say, the mark of a man losing an argument. The form is clear, you make the claim, you provide the evidence. If someone's missed something, then the posts are all conveniently numbered to enable you to reference them.


Yes, it's industrial grade stupid.

Yes, yes it is. <CTRL> + C then <CTRL> + V is such a hassle...
 
Again, I am not sure what you are saying has changed.





Here is the story as I understand it.



He buys the TV. He finds it doesn't fit in his SUV, takes it back and asked them to hold it and then came back. When he comes back to retrieve it an employee suspects him of stealing it but another employee confirms that he owns the television. when putting it back in his car a police officer suspects him of stealing and again an employee sets him straight.



When the son gets home, he and his mother decide to return to the store to return the TV which is where the arrest and the events on camera happen.



That is the story as I first heard it and it is, as far as I know, the story still.



Now what part of that has changed?



You are right and I was wrong. Thank you.
 
But you're certain it's not just plain racism, right?
No. Like I said,

I assume the grievance claimed in the lawsuit is legitimate, but there seems to be a YUGE chunk of context missing from the story.

Because they can? I don't think they need to justify it to you, if that's the contract with the vendor. They returned the TV because they can.
You're confusing curiosity with a sense of entitlement.

You seem committed to ignoring or misunderstanding what I've said, and then attacking me on the basis of that ignorance or misunderstanding.

Perhaps they thought '**** this, we just don't need the hassle, we'll buy a tv elsewhere', but it doesn't matter.
I agree that it doesn't matter, but this probably not what they thought. They'd already bought the TV. Money had changed hands, and the TV was already in their home. The hassle was over. If they thought they didn't need more hassle, the last thing they would have done is load the TV back in their car and take it back for a return.

Is anyone counting? Are there official figures? Somehow I doubt it - if shooting people isn't recorded then I doubt a simple beating warrants record.
Should I ask you if you're sure it's true?
 
No. Like I said,



You're confusing curiosity with a sense of entitlement.

You seem committed to ignoring or misunderstanding what I've said, and then attacking me on the basis of that ignorance or misunderstanding.


I agree that it doesn't matter, but this probably not what they thought. They'd already bought the TV. Money had changed hands, and the TV was already in their home. The hassle was over. If they thought they didn't need more hassle, the last thing they would have done is load the TV back in their car and take it back for a return.

But they did because they could. As I say, it doesn't matter.



Should I ask you if you're sure it's true?

Sure what's true? The bit directly above your quote was a question. I suspect police beatings are recorded with no more vigour than police shootings. I have no idea, which is why it's framed as a question followed by a musing, not in any way as a statement of fact.


EDIT:

I'm a big fan of 'what are we missing here', and I really hope there's something here that makes sense of this, but, given the past history of US LEO's and their interactions with minorities, I'm afraid I find it a reasonable, working assumption that US cops were racists and decided to just go with that, confident that none of their colleagues will dobb them in (Something that seems to happen in a vanishingly rare number of cases, if at all) and that their superiors and union will duck, dodge, pip dive and duck to get them off a charge and that the very, very worst that will happen to them is that they will have to go find a job in the city down the road.

Were there any sort of robust and honest investigation of any of the many previously reported instances of policemen assaulting innocent minorities, my view would be different. If there were a whole slew of officer reports every time a policeman hides drugs on someone or shoots someone or beats someone up then my underlying view might change. But there isn't. For every single incident of policemen being 'bad cops' while other policemen watch them do it, the sum total of 'blue on blue' reporting is so close to zero as to be pointless.

These people are wearing uniforms also worn by people who have assaulted and killed minorities with impunity for the last 50 years which is incidentally the same uniform worn by those'good cops' who have singularly failed to police their own. In light of this, it is not fantastic to me to believe that these policemen assaulted this man because he was a black man with a big telly and they didn't like it.
 
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But they did because they could. As I say, it doesn't matter.





Sure what's true? The bit directly above your quote was a question. I suspect police beatings are recorded with no more vigour than police shootings. I have no idea, which is why it's framed as a question followed by a musing, not in any way as a statement of fact.

I'm glad we got all that cleared up.
 
But they did because they could. As I say, it doesn't matter.

I'm interested in this part, the reason being that in the UK you'd be hard pushed to get a retailer to accept a return under the circumstances we see here.

The best outcome you'd probably get is a credit note to use against something else in the store/chain.

If it's the same stateside then perhaps that is where the upset that led to the row that led to the beatdown started?
 

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