Biden for President?

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wareyin said:
Oh my goodness, I read an article that described these actions happening over and over again for more than two decades and I described it as decades long! Oh, heavens to betsy the effort!
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I didn’t say it was a huge effort. In fact, I’d say it took little effort at all. It’s easy to believe the worst about people and say they aren’t credible. Especially women who accuse powerful men with lots of support.

If you spent the same energy questioning Reade's motives as you want everyone else to spend on everyone else from Reade's past who describes those motives in less than glowing terms, I wonder where we'd be.
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Thats a gross mischaracterization of my position. I don’t want anyone to spend any energy on digging up dirt from an accuser’s past. I want people to focus on evidence.

Why should I be questioning the multiple independent witnesses testifying in the multiple stories written in multiple researched articles, rather than the latest version of Reade's story?
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Because apparently assessing credibility is so very important when assessing someone’s claims
 
theprestige said:
Regardless of what I want, I don't think Reade's claim has enough support to be accepted as true. I actually get to the same place you do, in spite of my biases, and without having to go all in on assassinating her character.

Why is it so important to you to do that?
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Now that's an ad hom!

You can't refute what Stacy posted, so you impugn her motives for posting it.
 
xjx388 said:
I didn’t say it was a huge effort. In fact, I’d say it took little effort at all.
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Indeed, seeing that something that spans over 20 years is decades long takes little effort. But somehow it bothers you that I can count?

xjx388 said:
Because apparently assessing credibility is so very important when assessing someone’s claims
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Yes, it is. And despite your objections here, I am absolutely certain you apply that routinely in your own life. The child who tells you they didn't eat the cookie, the guy at the bar that tells you he forgot his wallet so can you spot him a beer, the relative who never pays anyone back asking you for a loan, etc.
 
theprestige said:
I feel like I put in the appropriate amount of effort into debating questions of critical thinking on a forum dedicated to the same.
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What you "feel" and what you consider "appropriate" for yourself is your opinion. You're entitled to it. But you are not entitled to tell me that my effort is "unnecessary".
I'm not sure Politico is or should be dedicated to partisan character assassination. But, if that is actually their charter, then I withdraw the accusation.
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Nice try.

Politico's media bias, given by the AllSides Bias Rating™, is center. Politico says that they “strike a perfect balance” in regards to demographics.
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Your accusation withdrawal is coming forthwith?

It's an attempt to refute her claim by attacking her personal history, rather than by attacking her claim as such. It's literally an ad hom.
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"Attacking" and "character assassination" are your words. I don't consider reporting what they were told by people who personally knew Reade and who related how she treated them is either. It's called reporting. If you bothered to read the article, which somehow I doubt you did, you'd have seen the article also reported on other friends/acquaintances who said positive things about Reade. Is that character assassination, too?

Do you believe that attacking her claim directly is insufficient to refute it?
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It can neither be refuted nor proved. Which is exactly why her credibility is important.

Who are you going to believe? Trump or Jean Carroll? Whose story is more credible? Whose word is more credible?
 
wareyin said:
You shouldn't believe this person because they lie all the time is not an ad hom.

I'm curious, here's a hypothetical. Your brother in law borrows your tools all the time and never returns them or breaks them. At some point, do you think it's not a good idea to lend him another tool, or do you just plow in with this 'just because a person has a long history of doing this same bad action is no reason to think it could be happening again' and hand him your brand new table saw?
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:thumbsup:

Do you want your daughter marrying a guy whose past includes decades of theft, fiscal irresponsibility, fraud, manipulation and dishonesty. Why not? That doesn't mean he going to be a thief, be fiscally irresponsible, commit fraud, manipulate her and continue to be dishonest after they get married. Right?
 
PBS has an extensive report on the Reade accusation and they presented a lot of evidence it didn't happen.

Full episode, The piece on Biden starts at 23:30

If you care at all why we shouldn't believe Reade, watch the segment. They talk to a person that interviewed dozens of people who were there at the time. They show the hallway it supposedly happened in and it was essentially a very public place with people always coming and going, not some quiet hallway.

A person who worked with Reade reported her to their supervisor because she was doing a poor job. It was around the time Reade left.

A lot of Senators did things that would be considered sexual abuse today, Biden was never one of them according to multiple staff that worked there at the time. Biden would not have had someone serve drinks at a fundraiser because they had nice legs as Reade claimed. Biden mostly had men do such things specifically so he didn't look like he was demeaning women.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
.....
If you care at all why we shouldn't believe Reade, watch the segment. They talk to a person that interviewed dozens of people who were there at the time. They show the hallway it supposedly happened in and it was essentially a very public place with people always coming and going, not some quiet hallway.
....
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As far as I recall, Reade has claimed she can't remember where this purportedly happened, which of course prevents anybody from checking the place out. Does someone in the office remember sending her there? Or say "This is where Joe always picked up his bag."
 
Stacyhs said:
Exactly. All these people are not just making this up out of thin air. Reade's reputation is all due to her own actions. No one else's.
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Her reputation is also completely separate from whether or not Biden actually assaulted her.

Women who lie get raped. Women who manipulate people get raped. Women who steal money get raped.

Should we start questioning the credibility of women because we know they have done these things? I guess we could; you’ve straight out said we should.

All of this mudslinging? It just makes it more difficult for women to do what takes a lot of courage to do in the first place. We want them to speak up; but, we will tear them down if they dare accuse the wrong person. The media, the Twittersphere, internet denizens in general...they can all find dirt on just about anyone. There are untold numbers of people who will say that “that woman wronged me in a way I can’t really prove, just insinuate.” For a woman who has, in fact, been raped but also made some mistakes in her life, it’s so easy to taint her credibility, call her a liar and perpetuate the harm already caused by her rapist. Why should any woman take that risk in this world where women are already at a disadvantage?

You know what’s worse? Failing to consider that what happened to a woman decades ago may have affected the course of her life. That judging her based on her actions later on is incredibly unfair.

John Lennon wrote a song called, “Woman is the ****** of the World.” It took me a long time to realize that in many ways he was right. It took, if I’m being honest, listening to the women close to me recount their surprising and shocking experiences. It made me angry. I wanted them to speak out. But why should they? There’s little chance of justice and a big chance that no one will believe them or do anything about it.
 
wareyin said:
Indeed, seeing that something that spans over 20 years is decades long takes little effort. But somehow it bothers you that I can count?



Yes, it is. And despite your objections here, I am absolutely certain you apply that routinely in your own life. The child who tells you they didn't eat the cookie, the guy at the bar that tells you he forgot his wallet so can you spot him a beer, the relative who never pays anyone back asking you for a loan, etc.
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No, I don’t assess credibility in my own life very often at all. Evidence is king. I give the benefit of the doubt unless I have evidence otherwise. My kid? Had to be him because we are the only ones around. The guy at the bar? Sure, I’ll buy you a beer (who cares if he’s credible?). Can’t pay me back, o brother? Consider it a Christmas gift; love you! Etc.

One thing for sure, if a woman I know tells me about the time she was raped, I definitely don’t go looking for reasons to discredit her.
 
theprestige said:
That's a lot of unnecessary effort being put into an ad hom when the claim itself isn't supported anyway.

Why does the left hate Reade so much?

Is it because she waited until after Biden was the presumptive nominee, instead of coming forward back when there was still a chance for Bernie or Warren?
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Centrists
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
PBS has an extensive report on the Reade accusation and they presented a lot of evidence it didn't happen.

Full episode, The piece on Biden starts at 23:30

If you care at all why we shouldn't believe Reade, watch the segment. They talk to a person that interviewed dozens of people who were there at the time. They show the hallway it supposedly happened in and it was essentially a very public place with people always coming and going, not some quiet hallway.

A person who worked with Reade reported her to their supervisor because she was doing a poor job. It was around the time Reade left.

A lot of Senators did things that would be considered sexual abuse today, Biden was never one of them according to multiple staff that worked there at the time. Biden would not have had someone serve drinks at a fundraiser because they had nice legs as Reade claimed. Biden mostly had men do such things specifically so he didn't look like he was demeaning women.
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Link is not working.
 
Bob001 said:
As far as I recall, Reade has claimed she can't remember where this purportedly happened, which of course prevents anybody from checking the place out. Does someone in the office remember sending her there? Or say "This is where Joe always picked up his bag."
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If she went to get a gym bag for Biden as she claims, the hallway in question is between Biden's office and the gym.

These excuses just get tedious.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Thanks, I'll fix it.

https://www.pbs.org/video/may-15-2020-pbs-newshour-full-episode-1589515201/

It would appear the problem is at the website. Go to the PBS site and click on:

May 15, 2020 - PBS NewsHour full episode

https://www.pbs.org/show/newshour/

I'll keep checking back to see if the link gets fixed.

https://www.pbs.org/video/may-15-2020-pbs-newshour-full-episode-vmlsm9/
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I'll take a look later when I have more time. But I'm sure it's just another PBS NewsHour hit piece/character assassination. PBS is well know for that. :D
 
xjx388 said:
Her reputation is also completely separate from whether or not Biden actually assaulted her.

Women who lie get raped. Women who manipulate people get raped. Women who steal money get raped.

Should we start questioning the credibility of women because we know they have done these things? I guess we could; you’ve straight out said we should.
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By your standard, if there is no supporting evidence -- and what would you need? witnesses? video? -- then the woman's complaint would have to be rejected out of hand. Alternatively, you could look at whether she has a history of telling the truth -- or not -- about important matters. One thing we know about people is that they generally do what has worked for them in the past. If someone has an extensive, proven pattern of lying and fraud, that makes it harder to take her word alone about an explosive allegation for which there is no evidence.
 
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Bob001 said:
By your standard, if there is no supporting evidence -- and what would you need? witnesses? video? -- then the woman's complaint would have to be rejected out of hand. Alternatively, you could look at whether she has a history of telling the truth -- or not -- about important matters. One thing we know about people is that they generally do what has worked for them in the past. If someone has an extensive, proven pattern of lying and fraud, that makes it harder to take her word alone about an explosive allegation for which there is no evidence.
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I notice XJ is laser focused on this one person's claim and ignores the 2 dozen women who accuse Trump of sexual assault. Now I am not aguing Trump did those things but here we are considering Trump or Biden and XJ has hand waved Trump's issues and can only talk about a claim against Biden that cannot be confirmed in the slightest way.

Makes you go hmmmmm.
 
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