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No Knock Warrants and the EMT

3point14

Pi
3point14
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
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I couldn't find a thread on this. I think it deserves it's own one.

"Breonna Taylor: Black healthcare worker 'shot at least eight times by police' in own home, lawsuit says."

A no knock warrant at the wrong address.


I mention it here, because I've often wondered what happens if a citizen shoots back at a LEO that's shooting up the wrong house. It's this:


"None of the officers involved have been charged in connection with the shooting. Mr Walker was arrested following the incident and faces charges of first-degree assault and attempted murder of a police officer."

From:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...coronavirus-nurse-ahmaud-arbery-a9510591.html

This thread was originally merged into the catch-all 'the behaviour of US police officers' thread but the issue of no-knock warrants is, I think, deserving of a thread of its own.
Posted By: Agatha
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Okay one very, very small caveat to get out the way first.

In incidents like this the victims to have more leeway to talk to the press then the authorities do, so sometimes, speaking only in the generalities, this can sometimes give the impression that the authorities side of things aren't reacting to the incident because they can't talk as openly and easily about things like internal investigations.

That being said... what do we even have to say at this point? Just cut and paste the last 20 threads of racists apologetics and be done with it. Start going through the victim's life history until you find out that she smoked pot or shoplifted when she was a teenager or there's an old social media post of her throwing up a gangsign. Spend 50 pages dissecting every action she took.
 
I mentioned it in the other thread, but, yeah, it's a problem for many reasons:

1) No knock warrants on a drug raid
2) What were they doing at this place anyway? The suspect didn't even live in the apartment complex
3) Oh, the suspect was already apprehended (saw someone ask, "But how would they know?" Like, there's no such thing as a radio)

And then there are the more overbearing issues
1) Why wouldn't the castle doctrine apply? and (my pet question)
2) The whole reason that the 2A is supposed to be so wonderful is because it allows the citizenry to defend themselves against the tyranny of the government. I have said for years that there are enough examples to make black people believe they are facing governmental tyranny, and here is an example. The NRA and 2A people should be praising this guy for standing up for his rights. According to them, this is exactly the type of situation that the 2A was meant for.

I'll wait for their action.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Okay one very, very small caveat to get out the way first.

In incidents like this the victims to have more leeway to talk to the press then the authorities do, so sometimes, speaking only in the generalities, this can sometimes give the impression that the authorities side of things aren't reacting to the incident because they can't talk as openly and easily about things like internal investigations.

That being said... what do we even have to say at this point? Just cut and paste the last 20 threads of racists apologetics and be done with it. Start going through the victim's life history until you find out that she smoked pot or shoplifted when she was a teenager or there's an old social media post of her throwing up a gangsign. Spend 50 pages dissecting every action she took.
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The police even tried that. In the post-event interviews, they were trying to get dirt on the victims, asking neighbors if they knew if the couple argued or anything.

It's the same MO, and coming from the police.
 
People have killed police in no-knock warrants and been exonerated in the courts under the very reasonable claim of self-defense from unidentified intruders. It's rare, because usually the residents don't survive the encounter.

No-Knock warrants are a terrible practice, among many other terrible practices that are common because of our absurd War on Drugs.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Castle doctrine is a defense for charges. They will not be charging the EMT with a crime.
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Yes Bob. They will not be charging the corpse with a crime. That is very rarely done.

They have already charged the other person in the house with a crime however.
 
pgwenthold said:
How many were black, I wonder....
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From 2010 through 2016, at least 81 civilians and 13 officers died during SWAT raids, including 31 civilians and eight officers during execution of no-knock warrants.[1] Half of the civilians killed were members of a minority.[1] Of those subject to SWAT search warrants, 42% are black and 12% are Hispanic.[1] Since 2011, at least seven federal lawsuits against officers executing no-knock warrants have been settled for over $1 million.[1]
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Wiki Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant#Statistics
Source links: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...A140005F3A37C147D0&gwt=pay&assetType=REGIWALL
 
The most disturbing part of this, to me, is the guy they were looking for was already in custody. I've got to think there has to be a way to cross reference the booking information with warrants. Perhaps they could use a computer?

Yeah, the dead woman is a problem too, and the lack of responsibility for that action, but when the person you are looking for, the reason you are on a high risk search is moot because you already have him in custody just adds to the tragedy.
 
pgwenthold said:
But I wonder how many black people have been exonerated for killing police who entered their residence in warrants. That's what SuburbanTurkey said has happened. I just wonder how often it works for black people
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It's hard to say. It's a fact pattern that doesn't happen very often, it's hard to draw wider conclusions. People who shoot back and survive to make a self-defense claim are pretty rare. Most end up dead in their homes.

A hispanic man named Ray Rosas was found not guilty of attempted murder after he shot some cops during an unannounced raid. Seems that if you're gonna kill a cop during such a raid, Texas is where you wanna be. Mr. Rosas still spent 600+ days in jail during his trial.
 
There used to be a similar problem with patients undergoing surgery and the wrong one ending up in the wrong theatre and having the wrong bit cut off them.

Because this was both an absolute disaster for all concerned, and because it was very, very expensive, there are now lots of things in place to stop it happening.
 
3point14 said:
There used to be a similar problem with patients undergoing surgery and the wrong one ending up in the wrong theatre and having the wrong bit cut off them.

Because this was both an absolute disaster for all concerned, and because it was very, very expensive, there are now lots of things in place to stop it happening.
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Yeah - it took a Sharpie* and a clip board to prevent most of that (seriously).



*Other markers are available.
 
Darat said:
Yeah - it took a Sharpie* and a clip board to prevent most of that (seriously).



*Other markers are available.
Click to expand...


I've seen "THIS ONE" written in beg letters on one leg and "NOT THIS ONE" written on the other :D
 
A nurse supplied me with a pen to mark my legs prior to an ankle fusion. There is normally 3-4 people asking the patient what procedure they are in for prior to the operation taking place.

How many examples need to be set (charging the authorizing officer of the no-knock warrant with murder) will it take until the police as a whole are more cautious?
 
The surviving resident who is charged with attempted murder during the wrong-address raid is allowed home incarceration instead of cash bail.

https://www.wdrb.com/in-depth/attorneys-claim-lmpd-officers-killed-26-year-old-emt-in-botched-police-raid/article_4bb33de6-704e-11ea-bb3c-4785530c8830.html

The suspect the police were looking for had already been located and arrested prior to the raid on the wrong address taking place.

The woman killed by the police was an EMT who worked volunteer hospital shifts in addition to her normal job.
 
Ranb said:
A nurse supplied me with a pen to mark my legs prior to an ankle fusion. There is normally 3-4 people asking the patient what procedure they are in for prior to the operation taking place.

How many examples need to be set (charging the authorizing officer of the no-knock warrant with murder) will it take until the police as a whole are more cautious?
Click to expand...

Well first we would have to make a habit of charging the police in such situations at all. As they can get away with such accidental killings with little or no consequence why should they change their behavior over worries about getting charged?

No the clear answer is to train people to not fight back against home invasion and comply with any such illegal actions rather like when they should comply and just go along with people chasing them in pick up trucks with shotguns for no reason.
 
Ranb said:
A nurse supplied me with a pen to mark my legs prior to an ankle fusion. There is normally 3-4 people asking the patient what procedure they are in for prior to the operation taking place.

How many examples need to be set (charging the authorizing officer of the no-knock warrant with murder) will it take until the police as a whole are more cautious?
Click to expand...

Any change has to be a political response. Police don't pay for the damages, taxpayers do.

So long as the "reduce taxes" folks are aligned with the "tough on crime" folks nothing will change.
 
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