The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread

[Stacyhs]

In this case, while he talked about doing it, he didn't actually do it. The full video shows the van doors being closed immediately after the comment and he doesn't carry any empty boxes.

That is true. But he still suggested carrying in empty boxes "just for the cameras". In other words, a dishonest photo op.

 

[slyjoe]

Just a reminder that not all articles are objective.

Ducey didn't decide to "ignore science" as the article claims. ADHS has been comparing multiple models since this started, including one developed by ASU. Ducey and ADHS have decided that the model developed by FEMA and CDC is more accurate. You can certainly argue with whether or not their decision is sound, especially since the FEMA model hasn't been kept pretty confidential. But to frame it as if Ducey decided to just ignore modeling altogether is misrepresentation.

Don't you mean "has been kept confidential"? So they are using models that can't be reviewed. Like they won't release nursing home deaths by facility and won't give a reason why. They started with HIPAA, then moved to patient confidentiality, then gave up and stormed away from the question.

If his actions aren't affected by the modeling, it is the same as ignoring the models no matter what he says. Models are generally used for resource utilization planning. Based on CDC guidelines, you don't need a model for deciding when to "open". You need 14 days of decreasing daily cases. Which Ducey said he was going to follow.

That said... yes, the total number of cases has been increasing. If you're looking at the state as a whole, that's apparent. What's a bit more interesting is if you look at the county level experience. Case rates in Maricopa County (where Phoenix is, along with over 60% of the population of the state) have slowed.

One thing to note is that at the beginning of may, ADHS started including positive results from antibody tests in their counts, which captured people who had no symptoms and no active viral loads, and those people are being counted in their reporting week. That is a little misleading, since there's no way to tell when they actually had the illness.

This would certainly affect the model, which again is used for planning, not for deciding when to loosen restrictions.

An additional complication is that there's been a fair bit of spread among the various Native American Nations in AZ. The Navajo Nation has been particularly hard hit, and is contributing to the stats for the state.

I think this depends on which stats you are talking about. The zip code data available from ADOH suppresses data from tribal regions.

Finally, I keep seeing this being reported as if AZ is just "oh, we're done, go back to normal life!". That's not the case. The stay-at-home order is still largely in place until May 15. Ducey has begun allowing some non-essential retail businesses to resume limited operations, provided they comply with CDC guidelines for safety, and enact social distancing. Barber shops and nail salons and similar have to have cleaning procedures in place, staff and customers must wear face coverings, and all interactions have to be by appointment (no walk ins), and there's a limit to the number of people who can be there at once. Dine-in restaurants are allowed to reopen with limited capacity and increased distance between tables, and additional cleaning protocols.

Not sure who, or even if, any of this will be enforced. I don't know what most models assume in regards to "percentage compliance" with mitigations.

Any non-essential business that can work from home is still required to work from home. A large chunk of stuff is still shut down. Personally, I think a gradual re-opening is a good idea... But you're entitled to your own opinions.

In general, I agree a gradual re-opening is wise. I'm just not sure there will be a will to re-lockdown if things go south.

Just please make an effort to ensure that those opinions are based on actual information and not on spin and narrative framing.

Ducey was doing a fairly good job. Things seem to have changed in the last week or two. Just to be clear, both the above statements are my opinion.

 

[newyorkguy]

I looked at news and county health sites in Maricopa County AZ and I didn't see anyone claiming that the increase in new coronavirus cases is slowing down. In fact, the County health service's chart -- which I attached below -- states at the top of the page, because of more testing, the number of cases is increasing. The case numbers on the extreme right are way down but the caption states those are "likely to increase" as test results are received and put into the system. The confirmed total cases end with the darker bars. The lighter bars on the right are the days for which the numbers are not yet final.

The bottom line is, even the White House guidelines call for no relaxation of stay-at-home restrictions until states or locales see new case numbers decline for fourteen consecutive days. Obviously Arizona is not meeting that standard no matter how anyone tries to spin it. This is what is concerning that, especially in Red States, we may be seeing a move to relax restrictions once a 'plateau' is reached. How this is going to play out remains to be seen. The wild card in all of this is that there is a fairly high percentage of asymptomatic people out and about.

I feel for some of the people in those states who might not want to go back to work just yet because they fear it's too soon. They may not have a choice and that's going to be hard for them to deal with.

 

[Trebuchet]

Awesome video of Mike Pence pretending to deliver PPE to a health care facility and forgetting he's wearing a microphone.
"Can I just carry the empty ones, just for the camera?"
How did that go about false witness, Mike?

In this case, while he talked about doing it, he didn't actually do it. The full video shows the van doors being closed immediately after the comment and he doesn't carry any empty boxes.

Oh, well that's just FINE then. He wanted to deceive the public but somebody shut the door on him.

 

[StillSleepy]

I guess God must be trying to tell Mike Pence something.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The US prevented a vote in the UN Security Council on a resolution calling for a ceasefire in various countries around the world so they can better fight the coronavirus pandemic.
Language used in the draft mentioning the World Health Organization was behind the US move to prevent the vote.

 

[Babbylonian]

The US prevented a vote in the UN Security Council on a resolution calling for a ceasefire in various countries around the world so they can better fight the coronavirus pandemic.
Language used in the draft mentioning the World Health Organization was behind the US move to prevent the vote.

I thought empty symbolism was all that this administration truly embraced.

 

[phiwum]

That is true. But he still suggested carrying in empty boxes "just for the cameras". In other words, a dishonest photo op.

I know that the administration abuses the "it was just a joke" line, but I think this totally could have been just a joke. I would've said something like that.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... Could the number of cases have been kept to a manageable level so we didn't need the lockdown?.

You mean if Trump had done his job?

To some extent, especially here in WA State. I'm not sure what the NY firestorm would have done, causing the need for more lockdowns.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Oh, well that's just FINE then. He wanted to deceive the public but somebody shut the door on him.

Could have been as simple as there were some empty boxes in the truck for other reasons.

I think this story was a dud. Wonder if Kimmel will apologize. Someone let me know, I don't watch his show.

There is so much crap between Pence and Trump. The photo-op itself was ludicrous. No need to enhance the outrage.

 

[Stacyhs]

I know that the administration abuses the "it was just a joke" line, but I think this totally could have been just a joke. I would've said something like that.

It is certainly a possibility here. I'll concede that much.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

You mean if Trump had done his job?

Why do you think was his job in this context?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I know that the administration abuses the "it was just a joke" line, but I think this totally could have been just a joke. I would've said something like that.

Is there any evidence Pence has a sense of humor? I haven't followed his doings and sayings closely because he creeps me out, but he doesn't strike me as making jokes. Also I heard if he gets a cut it takes up to twelve minutes for blood to show up.

 

[Horatius]

Why do you think was his job in this context?

Because it literally is his ******* job, maybe?

If protecting the US from pandemic were not a part of the president's ******* job, why would the US intelligence services be telling him about a possible pandemic in his daily briefings? And not just one briefing, multiple briefings over the course of several weeks.

This is the job he signed up for, and he dropped the ******* ball.

And you're letting him get away with it,

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Was posting in response to this exchange:

Could the number of cases have been kept to a manageable level so we didn't need the lockdown?

You mean if Trump had done his job?

The second poster spent a lot of time saying the flu was much much worse than C-19 and was very vocal about Trump's "ignorance" in stopping travel from China.

So I think it's reasonable to ask what she thinks Trump should have done.

 

[Stacyhs]

Why do you think was his job in this context?

To protect the country instead of falsely claiming the virus would "just disappear like magic" in April. Not to push a drug as a false hope that he had absolutely NO idea had any effect on the virus (it doesn't). Not to claim he shut down people from China coming in when 40,000 people did exactly that. Not to claim it was a "Democrat hoax". Not to claim everyone who wanted a test could get one when it was a bald faced lie. And all the myriad other ******* lies the SOB told. THAT was his job. He failed miserably.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

To protect the country instead of falsely claiming the virus would "just disappear like magic" in April. Not to push a drug as a false hope that he had absolutely NO idea had any effect on the virus (it doesn't). Not to claim he shut down people from China coming in when 40,000 people did exactly that. Not to claim it was a "Democrat hoax". Not to claim everyone who wanted a test could get one when it was a bald faced lie. And all the myriad other ******* lies the SOB told. THAT was his job. He failed miserably.

To "protect the country" isn't very specific. You're also pretty unclear on what you thought he should have done regarding travel from China. Do you think he should have illegally prohibited the 40K American citizens from returning to the US? Do you think he should have allowed Chinese nationals to come to the US?

The rest of your post is inaccurate when it isn't word salad.

 

[Meadmaker]

To "protect the country" isn't very specific. You're also pretty unclear on what you thought he should have done regarding travel from China. Do you think he should have illegally prohibited the 40K American citizens from returning to the US? Do you think he should have allowed Chinese nationals to come to the US?

The rest of your post is inaccurate when it isn't word salad.

Mobilize the resources available to produce tests, protective equipment, and workplace or public area safety measures to slow the spread of the virus.

Instead, he sent checks to every American. Awesome. Borrowed money doesn't keep the virus from spreading.


In a different thread I said the government should have hired people to deliver groceries. In reality would that have been a great idea? This is where project managers earn their pay. What does it take to get that from idea to program? Could it have been done? I don't know, but yes, I honestly believe that would have been a good use of government money. It employs people while simultaneously slowing the spread of the virus.

But, maybe that wasn't the best way. Again, that's what project managers are for, to figure out which, out of all the possible things to do, are actually the ones that can be done, and then do them.

Why do I not have an N95 mask? Would it have been impossible, with the resources available to the United States, to make five of them for every single American, with 20 times more than that for health care workers, over the last two months? That's about 2 billion masks. Could it have been done? I don't know, but somebody ought to, and I don't think Trump did.

In this thread, I think, there was mention of an Apollo level effort. A truly massive and very expensive undertaking to create PPE and tests. Why didn't it happen? He could give away two trillion dollars, but he couldn't make 2 billion masks? What's up with that? That's 1,000 dollars a mask. Surely it would have been a massive undertaking. Good thing there's 30 million Americans available to work on it.

I guess it's not his job......but, wait, whose is it?

 

[Giordano]

To "protect the country" isn't very specific. You're also pretty unclear on what you thought he should have done regarding travel from China. Do you think he should have illegally prohibited the 40K American citizens from returning to the US? Do you think he should have allowed Chinese nationals to come to the US?

The rest of your post is inaccurate when it isn't word salad.

He should have made certain that they were quarantined and tested as they returned. Otherwise what is the logic? That the nature of your passport determines if you are infectious or not? The political nature of Trump’s motivation is made all too clear by this indifference to the actual public health aspects of his order.

 

[Stacyhs]

To "protect the country" isn't very specific. You're also pretty unclear on what you thought he should have done regarding travel from China. Do you think he should have illegally prohibited the 40K American citizens from returning to the US? Do you think he should have allowed Chinese nationals to come to the US?

The rest of your post is inaccurate when it isn't word salad.

Travel from China: I approved of the ban on travel from China. HOWEVER, it wasn't a ban as he claims. The 40K that came through were not all US citizens. If you'd bothered to look, there were more holes in who could come in than Swiss cheese. And those who came through did so with lousy, if any, testing to see if they were infected. He DID allow Chinese nationals to come in. Like I said, look at the his order.

What exactly is 'inaccurate' in my post? Go on...give me specifics.