Jogging in Georgia while black.

[Sideroxylon]

The most enjoyable part of being a member of ISF is watching the "OMG-America-is-so-racist" social justice mob fall for stories like this without being the least bit skeptical before they work themselves into a frenzy and step directly on the rake laid out in front of them and get whacked right in the face.

Never gets old.

America is racist and ******* crazy.

 

[Meadmaker]

The most enjoyable part of being a member of ISF is watching the "OMG-America-is-so-racist" social justice mob fall for stories like this without being the least bit skeptical before they work themselves into a frenzy and step directly on the rake laid out in front of them and get whacked right in the face.

Never gets old.

I must agree with Bogative here. We simply don't have all of the facts.

All that we know is that there was a confrontation, and the "victim" ran away, prompting at least two people with guns (unknown whether they already had the guns, or were retrieved after the first confrontation) to get into a pickup, and follow him, eventually blocking his path with their truck, with one getting out of the car while displaying a weapon. Also, prompting someone in a second car to follow while taking video of what was about to happen.

At that point, we know that the runner attacked the man, who shot him. Or maybe his friend shot him from the bed of the pickup.

That's all we know.

Based on that, it could be first degree murder.
It could be second degree murder.
It could even be some variation on manslaughter. (That term is used in some states' laws, not in others.)

And I couldn't tell whether all three shots were from the shotgun, or whether the handgun was also fired from the bed of the pickup truck. That could mean that there are possibly two people who could be guilty of homicide, or of assault, possibly assault with attempt to murder (colloquially referred to as "attempted murder").

It could have an additional element of a hate crime.

There's so much we don't know.

 

[Shepherd]

Some editorializing from your's truly.

I'm taking the liberty to assume "random black guy that fits the description of some dubious burglary suspect" really means "black guy in the wrong neighborhood".

The verbatim quote from the 911 call is "He's a black man running down our road".

That may be a verbatim quote from the family's lawyer, but in that lawyers tend to get into "editorializing" too, maybe you should actually investigate that.

Here, this might help. This article seems to have actual quotes from both of the 911 calls.

https://thebrunswicknews.com/news/l...cle_fe51cdd4-3bb6-5815-9dec-ddcdc8f879f8.html

 

[Norman Alexander]

According to a Guardian report, Arbery had been jogging this street for a long time. He was a regular and known for it.

On a sun-speckled, tree-lined street on a sunny Sunday afternoon, Ahmaud Arbery ran through his neighborhood in the coastal town of Brunswick, Georgia. Neighbors had seen him run by their homes every day for years.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/06/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-georgia

I have two questions:

1) Are the shooters also regulars in the area? Residents?

If so, they would probably have known who Arbery was and why he was running. And this was just personal animus.

If not, their story of "black guy running on our streets" indicates they were likely "trawling" the streets for any black guy to shoot. Also, hence the cam video from the "trailing" car. Again, what gives them that animus to do that sort of thing?

2) How did these guys know where he was running so they could "drive and cut him off"? Did they stake him out previously? Know his route? That suggests premeditation. They've been following him.


Altogether, this is murder.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I must agree with Bogative here. We simply don't have all of the facts.

So if you're throwing in with him, how about you answer the question that he still hasn't?

What facts are we waiting on exactly? Please give me a hypothetical set of scenarios that happened before this event, off camera of this event, or whatever that makes what happened in the video not terrible.

And I want an answer, not a vague, glib allusion to some "We need to hear all the facts" truism.

 

[Meadmaker]

So if you're throwing in with him, how about you answer the question that he still hasn't?

What facts are we waiting on exactly? Please give me a hypothetical set of scenarios that happened before this event, off camera of this event, or whatever that makes what happened in the video not terrible.

And I want an answer, not a vague, glib allusion to some "We need to hear all the facts" truism.

Joe, please try a little bit harder.


I said, we don't know all the facts, and then went on to say that it could be first degree murder, or second degree murder, or maybe manslaughter (emphasis added) or possibly a hate crime, and that we needed more facts to sort it out.

I'm pretty sure plenty of other people figured out what I did there.

 

[Mike!]

I must agree with Bogative here. We simply don't have all of the facts.

All that we know is that there was a confrontation, and the "victim" ran away, prompting at least two people with guns (unknown whether they already had the guns, or were retrieved after the first confrontation) to get into a pickup, and follow him, eventually blocking his path with their truck, with one getting out of the car while displaying a weapon. Also, prompting someone in a second car to follow while taking video of what was about to happen.

At that point, we know that the runner attacked the man, who shot him. Or maybe his friend shot him from the bed of the pickup.

That's all we know.

Based on that, it could be first degree murder.
It could be second degree murder.
It could even be some variation on manslaughter. (That term is used in some states' laws, not in others.)

And I couldn't tell whether all three shots were from the shotgun, or whether the handgun was also fired from the bed of the pickup truck. That could mean that there are possibly two people who could be guilty of homicide, or of assault, possibly assault with attempt to murder (colloquially referred to as "attempted murder").

It could have an additional element of a hate crime.

There's so much we don't know.

Most of the news reports I've read keep saying "two shots", when it's clear in the video there are 3 shots fired, the first happens nearly at the same time we see him go around the truck. We can't see what happened when the first shot is fired, but the other two can be seen, with the last being the fatal one. Was the first a shot in the air, to scare/stop him, or did the altercation somehow start as soon as the runner goes out of sight around the truck, and if so, who/what started it? It's all over in seconds, but we only see a fraction of that.
And, no, I'm not saying the gun toatin', truck drivin' idiots had the tiniest right to start this, at all, and clearly, if they hadn't, he'd still be alive. No defence there, but, as Meadmaker said, we are missing some key details.

 

[Thermal]

So if you're throwing in with him, how about you answer the question that he still hasn't?

What facts are we waiting on exactly? Please give me a hypothetical set of scenarios that happened before this event, off camera of this event, or whatever that makes what happened in the video not terrible.

And I want an answer, not a vague, glib allusion to some "We need to hear all the facts" truism.

Here ya go. And tell me if it is too outlandish:

The hillbillies were right, and Arbery was in fact the burglar captured on video. The first time they tried to confront him, he took off running. The second time, there was a car following him.

Remember the inexplicable car, that was following Arbery and captured the video? And who's occupants said nothing audible while witnessing a killing?

Hillbilly boys see Arbery now charging down the street toward their parked truck, with a vehicle following. Say that (since you ask for a hypothetical) they recognize the car, or see that it is full of unfriendly faces, looking like Arbey has rounded up a posse and is charging them to bring trouble.

Now our innocent jogger is still inexplicably running towards a man with a shotgun and diverts to the other side of the truck for cover and, without breaking his stride, attacks Jethro (there was no warning shot, btw. The first shot is when Arbery is in full charge, a couple feet away).

How's that? Anything that doesn't fit?

I'm not saying this happened, of course. But as skeptics, shouldn't we at least consider something besides the Murdering Racists narrative? How many threads before has it turned out the narrative was wrong?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Ah the fan fiction begins....

Is Amber Guyger's lawyer still available? I mean he lost but he probably learned a lot.

And the "Oh but maybe he was the burglar!?" started quicker then I thought.

Okay sit down I've got some bad news, you can't execute black men in the street for crimes without a trial. So even if he was the burlgar it was still murder. 1st Degree Murder.

I bet he smoked pot too. Quick someone find a Facebook photo where he's throwing up a gang sign!

 

[bruto]

Here ya go. And tell me if it is too outlandish:

The hillbillies were right, and Arbery was in fact the burglar captured on video. The first time they tried to confront him, he took off running. The second time, there was a car following him.

Remember the inexplicable car, that was following Arbery and captured the video? And who's occupants said nothing audible while witnessing a killing?

Hillbilly boys see Arbery now charging down the street toward their parked truck, with a vehicle following. Say that (since you ask for a hypothetical) they recognize the car, or see that it is full of unfriendly faces, looking like Arbey has rounded up a posse and is charging them to bring trouble.

Now our innocent jogger is still inexplicably running towards a man with a shotgun and diverts to the other side of the truck for cover and, without breaking his stride, attacks Jethro (there was no warning shot, btw. The first shot is when Arbery is in full charge, a couple feet away).

How's that? Anything that doesn't fit?

I'm not saying this happened, of course. But as skeptics, shouldn't we at least consider something besides the Murdering Racists narrative? How many threads before has it turned out the narrative was wrong?

Your scenario seems to ignore the account we read above that Arbery was a regular jogger in the neighborhood, known to at least some of its residents, and that nobody else would have thought to figure out whether he was doing something else when he regularly, over the years, jogged by.'

It also seems to contradict multiple reports that the first shot was taken as he ran around the truck, from the truck. Was there another car behind Arbery full of hostile looking people? Or just another passer by with a camera? Would it be unusual or frightening for a car to be seen on a public highway?

 

[Thermal]

You asked for an hypothetical alternative narrative, Jackson. You can't complain when you got what you asked for.

Well, you can, but you look pretty stupid.

What do you think is implausible? Or was your request for a hypothetical just bait?

 

[pgwenthold]

Here ya go. And tell me if it is too outlandish:

The hillbillies were right, and Arbery was in fact the burglar captured on video. The first time they tried to confront him, he took off running. The second time, there was a car following him.

Remember the inexplicable car, that was following Arbery and captured the video? And who's occupants said nothing audible while witnessing a killing?

Hillbilly boys see Arbery now charging down the street toward their parked truck, with a vehicle following. Say that (since you ask for a hypothetical) they recognize the car, or see that it is full of unfriendly faces, looking like Arbey has rounded up a posse and is charging them to bring trouble.

Now our innocent jogger is still inexplicably running towards a man with a shotgun and diverts to the other side of the truck for cover and, without breaking his stride, attacks Jethro (there was no warning shot, btw. The first shot is when Arbery is in full charge, a couple feet away).

How's that? Anything that doesn't fit?

I'm not saying this happened, of course. But as skeptics, shouldn't we at least consider something besides the Murdering Racists narrative? How many threads before has it turned out the narrative was wrong?

As skeptics, shouldn't we be asking "What did he do to deserve being shot?"

 

[Thermal]

Your scenario seems to ignore the account we read above that Arbery was a regular jogger in the neighborhood, known to at least some of its residents, and that nobody else would have thought to figure out whether he was doing something else when he regularly, over the years, jogged by.'

What does some other residents recognizing them have to do with these guys? Or, looked at another way, who said the rednecks didn't recognize him as a regular jogger? Wouldn't that account for how he was recognized on surveillance video?

It also seems to contradict multiple reports that the first shot was taken as he ran around the truck, from the truck. Was there another car behind Arbery full of hostile looking people? Or just another passer by with a camera? Would it be unusual or frightening for a car to be seen on a public highway?

Highway? Looks like a residential backstreet to me. And filming the road as they happened to be driving down it, then happened upon a killing without comment? Do you do this?

Plus, JM asked for a hypothetical to complain about. I'm not advocating this.

 

[Thermal]

As skeptics, shouldn't we be asking "What did he do to deserve being shot?"

Absolutely. And I would say nothing to deserve it.

I would also opine that if you see a truck barracading a road with armed hillbillies in Georgia...

Don't run down the street towards them unarmed and attack them with your bare hands. Something predictably bad might happen.

 

[pgwenthold]

Absolutely. And I would say nothing to deserve it.

I would also opine that if you see a truck barracading a road with armed hillbillies in Georgia...

Don't run down the street towards them unarmed and attack them with your bare hands. Something predictably bad might happen.

Wow, so now it's his fault.

But then again, according to the report, he DID run away. And they chased after him.

So you think that a black person being run down by a white guys carrying shotguns in a pickup truck should surrender to them. That's pretty disgusting, I have to say.

 

[Thermal]

Wow, so now it's his fault.

But then again, according to the report, he DID run away. And they chased after him.

So you think that a black person being run down by a white guys carrying shotguns in a pickup truck should surrender to them. That's pretty disgusting, I have to say.

Try reading harder. The hillbillies confronted him twice. The first time he ran away. The second time he charged them. They were parked. He ran up to them and attacked.

Would you do that? I wouldn't. Confronted witb armed nutjobs, and being unarmed, I would be cutting across some lawns to get away from them. As fast as I could.

So you advocate charging at armed crazies? Do tell.

 

[lionking]

You asked for an hypothetical alternative narrative, Jackson. You can't complain when you got what you asked for.

Well, you can, but you look pretty stupid.

What do you think is implausible? Or was your request for a hypothetical just bait?

That is an incredibly ironic comment.

 

[bruto]

What does some other residents recognizing them have to do with these guys? Or, looked at another way, who said the rednecks didn't recognize him as a regular jogger? Wouldn't that account for how he was recognized on surveillance video?



Highway? Looks like a residential backstreet to me. And filming the road as they happened to be driving down it, then happened upon a killing without comment? Do you do this?

Plus, JM asked for a hypothetical to complain about. I'm not advocating this.

There's no evidence that the rednecks in question correlated the jogger, let alone a jogger they knew, with any surveillance video, is there?

A road, a street, a public highway. Yes a road that is open to the public who drive on it. Do people going into the neighborhood normally fly? Even if it's a quiet residential street a person would have to be insane to be surprised at the presence of a car on it.

No, I don't film things going on ahead of me when I drive, but many people do, especially if they see something odd. In some places dashcams are a routine item that is always kept on. It's a far more believable scenario than the idea that the person in the car was some sort of accomplice.

And, of course, if the rednecks had actually recognized a known individual on a surveillance video, it was really really stupid and wrong for them to get in a truck and go gunning for him when they could just have called the cops and said they knew who the culprit was.

And (just to cover a following text) I don't think the jogger did run to the truck and attack someone with his bare hands. He ran around the truck, and the occupants then chased him. Accounts have the attack occurring outside of the truck, after the jogger had run around it.

While trying to imagine how things go, I would suppose that in Georgia a pickup truck full of people (I don't know for sure if they also looked like threatening rednecks) is probably pretty common. So I would suspect that the idea that one should turn around and run away when one sees a pickup truck is race-specific.

We're getting dangerously near to the invocation of a unique ******-code (I presume the auto censor will edit that first word out), in which it's the fault of certain folks if they forget their special place in society. Given the sad state of the world, I suppose you can say it's their mistake, but that is far far different from saying it's their fault, and until that difference is recognized improvement will be slow and painful.

 

[Thermal]

That is an incredibly ironic comment.

Instead of going straight to a childish 0/12, how about you contribute?

Do you think it is bright to ask for an alternative hypothetical and then complain when you get exactly what you ask for?

Expecting crickets in 3...2...1...

 

[Checkmite]

Your scenario seems to ignore the account we read above that Arbery was a regular jogger in the neighborhood, known to at least some of its residents, and that nobody else would have thought to figure out whether he was doing something else when he regularly, over the years, jogged by.'

It also seems to contradict multiple reports that the first shot was taken as he ran around the truck, from the truck. Was there another car behind Arbery full of hostile looking people? Or just another passer by with a camera? Would it be unusual or frightening for a car to be seen on a public highway?

You're talking to a dedicated contrarian. If you haven't deduced it yet from his characterizing Arbery's self-evidently trying to run around and past the truck as "charging" the gunman who at that moment was in the middle of the road on the opposite side of the truck, Thermal is arguing in bad faith. At least keep that in mind if you insist on trying to engage him.