The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread

[Skeptic Ginger]

If every renter in the country did not pay their rent this month, approximately zero landlords would go hungry.

If every renter in the country does pay their rent this month, at least a few people will go hungry.

You wanna talk about the fairness of money and transactions in the abstract? Fine. But we're in the middle of a very real crisis that is going to kill at least a hundred thousand Americans. I'll gladly keep people fed if it means a handful of property owners get irked in response.

What if I singled you out and said, you pay to feed ten-fifteen people, you have no choice. And everyone on your block has to do the same, because it looks like you live in a well-off part of town..

That would solve your problem.

Property owners? OK, let's take everyone that owns a house, they should take a family or two in and feed them dinner. They own property, they must have extra cash around.

I'm not against feeding these people. Or helping them pay their rent. I'm saying stop singling out people you think have money because they own property. Lots of people are renters who have a ton of money.

How about some elderly couple on not-enough Social Security who happen to own a house? Maybe you think they should sell their house to feed other people it because they have some equity.

The idea "property owners" should just absorb unpaid rent? What about their mortgage and utility payments? Someone who barely gets by is supposed to pay someone else's utility payments. How about you volunteer to pay it? Better yet, how about we just mandate you to pay it?


The money should come from the COMMUNITY COFFERS, not someone's individual bank account. We all pay taxes in, that's where the money should come from.

You need to reexamine your false assumptions about property owners.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The morality of it isn't as simple as you suggest.

Yes it ******* is.

If someone has made a capital gain whilst a property is rented, it's fair to say the tenant has helped make that capital gain, yet the tenant has no rights to any of it.

Landlords also often gain tax incentives that increases the value of the income from rent. Tenants aren't given any benefit for that, either.

Now, when we're at a time of zero, or close to zero interest rates, a mortgage holiday isn't going to harm landlords, but would enable them to help their tenants.

Not all tenants deserve the help, maybe, but I'd be prepared to say a majority do.

You going to sort all this out before deciding which rental owners are supposed to pay this extra tax to feed people who can't make the rent?

Do you think this calculation of yours applies to everyone equally?

I don't have any doubt whatsoever that a whole lot of people need help with rent and mortgage payments. I asked for my Fannie Mae mortgage to be be suspended and the payments tacked on to the end of the mortgage. They are deciding if I will get that benefit or whether I will have to simply pay more than my usual payments to make up for the delayed payments.

How is it the friggin Fannie Mae gets to decide if I have to pay my mortgage but renters get to simply stiff the landlord for who knows how many months?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You simultaneously demand your own wealth in the form of property not be taken from you by government action for the sake of others while saying you want my wealth in the form of shares to be taken from me! You don't see that as hypocritical? Why should I be penalized just because you invested your wealth differently?

WTF?! Where in anything I posted do you see me saying anything of the sort?

OMG!

Let me calm down before I answer your absurd post.

 

[bruto]

Odd? Bat guano crazy.

The funny thing (funny odd not funny ha ha) is that if the vociferous supporters of the second amendment did their history homework, I think j they'd find that one of the main game changers in the interpretation of that amendment is thanks to the Black Panthers.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

My indignation prevented me from wording it clearly. I meant that she insisted on not having any interference with her bloodsucking landlordery but has no issues with messing with capital gains. For some reason owning real estate and renting it out deserves protection, but to hell with anyone who instead owns shares and dares to profit from selling them. A tax upon thee and not upon me, in other words, is what I detected.

I agree. Rather than not paying rent there should be a mechanism by which renters who cannot pay due to the emergency can get a grant paid to the landlord. No reason the landlords should eat the loss, they're just as much victims of the emergency as the renters are. But everyone who can afford their rent ought to pay it.

I'm not sure I grasp where she is saying to take your money? The wealth tax?

I would assume that the wealth tax would apply to all measureable wealth, including real estate, and not just shares. Maybe I missed something. (As an aside, I dislike the idea of a wealth tax)


My gut tells me that an eviction moratorium or a rent forgiveness period is a bad idea, especially the rent forgiveness period. On the other hand, an eviction moratorium mostly encapsulates good business practice at this time. There are people who cannot pay their rent because of short term unemployment. However, the vast majority of unemployed can walk right back into jobs if the work restrictions were removed. Evicting them doesn't make any sense in most cases because it's not like there are a horde of renters who really want to take their place and have the ability to pay. It would be better business to keep the non-paying tenant, and try to recover some of the rent at a later time. However, an actual law that prohibits you from evicting people is an invitation to abuse. People perfectly able to pay may very well just stop paying because....why not? It's effectively a no interest loan, which I might very well want.

Similarly for mandatory non-foreclosures.

You simultaneously demand your own wealth in the form of property not be taken from you by government action for the sake of others while saying you want my wealth in the form of shares to be taken from me! You don't see that as hypocritical? Why should I be penalized just because you invested your wealth differently?

WTF?! Where in anything I posted do you see me saying anything of the sort?

OMG!

Let me calm down before I answer your absurd post.

OK, so TM your issue is screw landlords, don't charge anyone a wealth tax?

I'm not asking my property not be taken. I'm saying distribute the burden via taxes, not some arbitrary tax on landlords.
First off, I pay real estate taxes, sales taxes, federal income taxes, self employment taxes which is essentially FICA, car registration taxes, fees to keep my DEA license, my RN and ARNP licenses, my FNP certification to keep my ARNP license, my CLIA waved lab license so I can do certain labs in my office, my city business license (one now, it used to be three), B&O taxes, and other certifications which I suppose are not taxes.

So what is your problem?

Yes, people who are extremely wealthy (it has nothing to do with who invested in what), aren't paying enough. They've gotten all kinds of tax evasion benefits from both the Bush administration and the Trump/McConnell administrations and now that I think about it, the Reagan administration.

Some of them are landlords, no doubt. But some landlords are not wealthy.

I'm saying telling landlords arbitrarily across the board to essentially donate hundreds of dollars to their tenants regardless of said landlords' financial situations is wrong.

There are people with billions of dollars, that's where money to feed the poor needs to come from, not from landlords who are barely getting by. How is telling landlords to pay regardless of their financial situation fair?

Are you afraid your own taxes are going to go up? You are fine with some elderly couple with a mother-in-law apartment paying hundreds of dollars in lost rent (money they might be living on) but you don't want taxes to go up relative to people's income or wealth?

 

[Mumbles]

With all the talk about lockdown protests, I thought you might like to be reminded of what some of the protestors are actually saying - this is from a lockdown protest in Sacramento, California a week ago

Hm. By their own standards, they should all be killed.

I'm not actually advocating any such thing, mind you, just as I don't with other protestors, but that's their response to any nonwhite group protesting against violence. They, themselves, have advocated that they be shot, run over, and otherwise violently killed, en masse.

 

[Darat]

You need to realise that White Nationalists love Russia. It's racist, anti-gay, antisemitic and suppresses women's rights.

What's not to like?

And rich white men rule.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Trump suggests he's seen evidence that the virus was made in a lab in Wuhan

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Dr. Bright is preparing an official whistleblower complaint, claiming he was pushed out of his position because he refused to bow to pressure WRT hydroxychloroquine

 

[Darat]

Trump suggests he's seen evidence that the virus was made in a lab in Wuhan

Presumably he means he has heard it said in a Fox News programme.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Trump suggests he's seen evidence that the virus was made in a lab in Wuhan

A CT crank as president. Nice one America.

 

[TragicMonkey]

OK, so TM your issue is screw landlords, don't charge anyone a wealth tax?

I'm not asking my property not be taken. I'm saying distribute the burden via taxes, not some arbitrary tax on landlords.
First off, I pay real estate taxes, sales taxes, federal income taxes, self employment taxes which is essentially FICA, car registration taxes, fees to keep my DEA license, my RN and ARNP licenses, my FNP certification to keep my ARNP license, my CLIA waved lab license so I can do certain labs in my office, my city business license (one now, it used to be three), B&O taxes, and other certifications which I suppose are not taxes.

So what is your problem?

Yes, people who are extremely wealthy (it has nothing to do with who invested in what), aren't paying enough. They've gotten all kinds of tax evasion benefits from both the Bush administration and the Trump/McConnell administrations and now that I think about it, the Reagan administration.

Some of them are landlords, no doubt. But some landlords are not wealthy.

I'm saying telling landlords arbitrarily across the board to essentially donate hundreds of dollars to their tenants regardless of said landlords' financial situations is wrong.

There are people with billions of dollars, that's where money to feed the poor needs to come from, not from landlords who are barely getting by. How is telling landlords to pay regardless of their financial situation fair?

Are you afraid your own taxes are going to go up? You are fine with some elderly couple with a mother-in-law apartment paying hundreds of dollars in lost rent (money they might be living on) but you don't want taxes to go up relative to people's income or wealth?

Scroll up and re-read. I don't think landlords should have to eat the expense. I don't think extra taxing on capital gains is justified either. Do you really think that everyone with investments is a millionaire or billionaire? Investing is what smart middle class people do with their money, instead of sinking into problematic rental property.

As for your "woe is me, all my taxes" routine, so what? You earn, you pay. You think you deserve to pay less therefore others should have to pay more?

I quite agree with your earlier statement: you are indeed a "progressive"-- the modern kind, which defines itself as "got mine, gimme more, screw everybody else"!

 

[Andy_Ross]

Trump Tweeted

Cryin’ Chuck Schumer was on a late night show using a false talking point over & over again. “We don’t have enough testing ,” he would repeat, when he knows we have done a great job on Testing, just like we have on Ventilators and everything else. He lied, gave NY SALT. Run AOC!

 

[newyorkguy]

From what I see in the news the Seattle initiative is for both rent and mortgages.

At the end of March, Seattleites across the city had to pay their rent and mortgages in a period when nearly half a million Washingtonians had just lost their jobs. At the same time, the Seattle City Council was poised to vote on Councilmember Tammy Morales' resolution to freeze rents and mortgages. Most asked for a "yes" vote on the rent-and-mortgage-freeze resolution, not knowing it was a purely symbolic gesture and would not actually stop rent and mortgage payments. Link

The resolution passed, as reported by Fox News in Seattle.

The Seattle City Council unanimously passed a resolution calling on Governor Jay Inslee, federal legislators, and the White House administration to place a moratorium on rent and mortgage payments for homes and businesses. Link

At the present time there is a push for cancelling rent payments

As May rent deadlines approach, Seattle City Councilmember Kshama Sawant and some other activists have added their voices to nationwide calls urging tenants to use tactics like rent strikes to push landlords and the government to cancel rent payments and provide other help. Link

But it doesn't seem completely one-sided. Some are urging caution as reported by the Seattle Times in a story updated two days ago.

Tenants eyeing rent strikes should exercise serious caution, because they could easily end up evicted, with marred records, said Xochitl Maykovich, political director at Washington Community Action Network. State laws meant to prevent evictions aren’t designed for people who withhold rent, she said.

Wiping out rent obligations could violate contract and property rights, though the issues are “really complicated,” University of Washington law professor Hugh Spitzer said. Link

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Trump suggests he's seen evidence that the virus was made in a lab in Wuhan

Lying as usual. Unless his 'evidence' was some crap on Fox News.

From the link, this is so similar to what he said about his people in HI investigating Obama's birth and he Trump couldn't believe what they were finding.

“We’re going to see where it comes from,” Trump said at a White House event on Thursday. “We have people looking at it very, very strongly. Scientific people, intelligence people, and others. We’re going to put it all together. I think we will have a very good answer eventually. And China might even tell us.”

There are dozens of scientific and intelligence reports there's no such evidence.

This one is from back in March when a number of these reports came out: Livescience: The coronavirus was not engineered in a lab. Here's how we know.

And from yesterday, guess someone doesn't want to upset Trump: AP News: US intel agencies: COVID-19 virus not man-made or altered, but still studying if outbreak began in China lab accident (No story at the link.)

 

[Andy_Ross]

“Very good people.” This is what the United States president sees when he looks at angry lawless armed militia overtaking a state capital.

 

[BobTheCoward]

“Very good people.” This is what the United States president sees when he looks at angry lawless armed militia overtaking a state capital.

Did they break the law?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Senator Dayna Polehanki tweeted

Directly above me, men with rifles yelling at us. Some of my colleagues who own bullet proof vests are wearing them. I have never appreciated our Sergeants-at-Arms more than today.

 

[newyorkguy]

Some property owner comments from the Seattle area posted in a local news blog:

"My husband and I own a house in Southeast Seattle, which we share with two renters. Our renters both work in service industry jobs and were laid off suddenly when the orders came restricting gatherings. We have decided not to charge rent for the duration of the crisis regardless of how the council votes, but we are also worried about our ability to pay the mortgage.

Please consider the impacts on small landlords of allowing renters to not pay rent, for extended periods of time. I’m not a corporate landlord, I don’t have the ability to just absorb a loss like that. I’m retired and the rental unit I have provides 30% of my income. I will work with my tenants who have been laid off, because I want to keep them, and I want to keep them housed during this difficult time. But I can’t afford to go on three to six months, with no income!

I have a variety of renters. Some of them are well paid and their employment is continuing. Others have reduced income until the stimulus or unemployment arrives. Some of them make more money than I do. Would you please resist the temptation to characterize ALL RENTERS as poor and needy and out of work, and ALL LANDLORDS as greedy heartless rich money grubbers.

Link

Words of wisdom!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Scroll up and re-read. I don't think landlords should have to eat the expense. I don't think extra taxing on capital gains is justified either. Do you really think that everyone with investments is a millionaire or billionaire? Investing is what smart middle class people do with their money, instead of sinking into problematic rental property.

As for your "woe is me, all my taxes" routine, so what? You earn, you pay. You think you deserve to pay less therefore others should have to pay more?

I quite agree with your earlier statement: you are indeed a "progressive"-- the modern kind, which defines itself as "got mine, gimme more, screw everybody else"!

You're not even paying attention to what I posted.

Your post suggests the most bizarre and far-fetched assumptions about me.

And what I said about taxing capital gains was two-fold. Where it was a significant income then yes, it should be taxed like income. It gets a pass (lower tax rate) because that is supposed to encourage investment. And in case you hadn't noticed, no one pays it until one sells the asset and makes the profit. That is the same as when you sell your house and earn capital gains.

But more importantly, it should not be erased when property is transferred to heirs. That's the thing about the dishonestly framed "death tax" which people falsely claim is income taxed twice. No it isn't. It's erased capital gains.

And I do support some kind of wealth tax because more than a few billionaires pay little or no taxes at all and right now they need to contribute more than that.

I think this has drifted off the topic about what to do with coronavirus related unemployment and who/how should rent relief be covered.