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The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread

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crescent said:
Remember how many gaskets got blown when a couple of self-proclaimed Black Panthers with billy clubs stood outside an election polling place?

Can one imagine what would happen if a half-dozen such Panthers stood in the State house balcony with billy clubs?

I mean, the gun thing is odd. I think these sorts of protesters would be happy to see black people with guns doing this - IF (BIG IF) the black people had long guns and military-looking tacticool accessories. Like, the long guns and the pseudo-military look make it all good.

But if black men in berets with pistols or clubs did this, the militia types would throw gaskets aplenty. That would not fit their perceptions of what "freedom" looks like.

Crazy times.
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Odd? Bat guano crazy.
 
The American Patriot Rally in Lansing, Mich. today was to demand an end to the shutdown and protest Gov. Whitmer's handling of the situation. She is embroiled in a fight with Michigan Republicans. They want her to stop using emergency powers to implement the shutdown. She has said no.
Whitmer says the state of emergency will continue under the Emergency Powers of Governor Act. Unlike the Emergency Management Act of 1976, the Emergency Powers of Governor Act of 1945 does not require that the Legislature approve the continuation of a state of emergency after 28 days — or after any fixed time period. Link
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Polls show a majority of Michigan residents approve Whitmer's handling of the epidemic.
A new poll released by the Detroit Regional Chamber shows Michigan residents approve of Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's response to the COVID-19 over President Donald Trump's. In a survey of 600 Michigan residents, respondents disapproved of Trump's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic 44%-50%, while approving of Whitmer's actions 57%-37%. The polling was conducted between April 15-16.Fox News Detroit
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A terrible day at the statehouse in Lansing.
 

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pgwenthold said:
OK, Mike Pence was largely criticized the other day for wandering around the Mayo Clinic without a mask. The Mayo clinic says he was informed of the policy and ask him why he didn't wear one.

He says he didn't wear one because he wanted to be able to look the others in the eyes (to which the response was, "if that is how he wears a mask, he is doing it wrong")

Well his wife went on TV this morning and claimed the reason he didn't wear a mask is because he didn't know about the policy.

A lot of criticism of her for this, but a lot of it more complicated than need be.

Yes, given that everyone else was wearing a mask and he should have figured it out, and yes, the Mayo clinic says they told of the policy, but that is an issue of his word against theirs.

BUT the answer is, either the VP or his wife is lying. It's not that they contradict the statement of the Mayo Clinic, it is that they contradict each other.

That's the problem with lying - it can be hard to keep your story straight. A lot easier if you just tell the truth.
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Usually so, but not in this instance. The flack he's taking is nothing compared to... What Dear Leader does, I do, no matter how stupid.

See for yourself.
 
Little different topic here. There's some movement in Seattle for everyone to not pay rent.

So here's my problem with that. For one, not every landlord is a mega-apartment owner. But that means the government (they've already ordered no evictions during the crisis which is essentially a license to not pay rent) is ordering landlords to foot the bill. No, the government needs to be subsidizing these people's rent if they can't pay it.

I used to be a landlord, one rental, I no longer am. But were I to still own said rental, why is it my responsibility to pay this charity-case's rent?

It already sucked that the new left on the City Council wanted no evictions allowed for 5 months in the winter. Again, why is it the landlords' requirement to pay people's rent?

That's not what socialism is about people. And willy-nilly taxing rental home owners, what is that about? Rental owners are not collecting the community taxes. They vary from wealthy LLCs to barely getting by landlords, sometimes even people renting rooms in their houses so they can pay the mortgage.

The stereotype that "landowners" are rich evil wealthy people sucks.

Here's an example of what I mean. I had a dentist that owed me a bit over $300 for a needle stick in his office I took care of. He didn't pay after several months so I contacted them. His wife's lawyer called, the guy had killed himself. Lawyer asked if I wouldn't just drop the charges because of his poor wife....whatever.

Sad as it was, why was it my job to pay into a charity for this woman? I give to charity every year:ACLU, Planned Parenthood, some political candidates. Sad wife was not on my list of charities I donate to. I told him so. I took some off the bill for my labor, which if I had chosen, I would have found a Habitat for Humanity project to donate my labor to.

Landlords' wealth (or debt) is not part of the collective coffers. We all pay into the collective coffers, that is where rent assistance should come from. Whether it's a winter eviction or an unemployment during a crisis crisis, we need to be paying to assist these people out of the collective coffer, not out of someone's rental income because the ignorant 'youth' they interviewed on the news this afternoon thinks "landowners" are all wealthy, or something.

[Bit of a side note but related because this is where Seattle and King County are looking to for help with the debt the COVID crisis is costing them] And I feel the same way about the County and City wanting to charge the biggest employers in this state a payroll tax. Instead of the income tax they can't get past the GOP legislature, someone came up with the idea of calling it a payroll head tax. They couldn't get it through because it was an income tax but now they are trying again because the city and county need money.

A wealth tax, sure. A different set up with capital gains tax, that will do. If we aren't going to rescind the estate tax giveaway, then charge the bastards for the capital gains they are being allowed to erase as the wealth changes hands. You can carve out exemptions for the very small number of people who would have to sell the family business to pay said gains taxes. A 6 million dollar exemption takes care of most of that.

Rescind the tax cuts for the rich that both GW and Trump/McConnell got passed before a major crisis occurred that shot the deficit through the roof: absolutely!

But don't pass tax bills off willy nilly onto private citizens with these rent relief bills that don't take the landlords into consideration who have to make up the cost with what is essentially an unfair and very unevenly charged tax.

And yes, I am still a Progressive.
 
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If every renter in the country did not pay their rent this month, approximately zero landlords would go hungry.

If every renter in the country does pay their rent this month, at least a few people will go hungry.

You wanna talk about the fairness of money and transactions in the abstract? Fine. But we're in the middle of a very real crisis that is going to kill at least a hundred thousand Americans. I'll gladly keep people fed if it means a handful of property owners get irked in response.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I used to be a landlord, one rental, I no longer am. But were I to still own said rental, why is it my responsibility to pay this charity-case's rent?
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The morality of it isn't as simple as you suggest.

If someone has made a capital gain whilst a property is rented, it's fair to say the tenant has helped make that capital gain, yet the tenant has no rights to any of it.

Landlords also often gain tax incentives that increases the value of the income from rent. Tenants aren't given any benefit for that, either.

Now, when we're at a time of zero, or close to zero interest rates, a mortgage holiday isn't going to harm landlords, but would enable them to help their tenants.

Not all tenants deserve the help, maybe, but I'd be prepared to say a majority do.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Little different topic here. There's some movement in Seattle for everyone to not pay rent.

So here's my problem with that. For one, not every landlord is a mega-apartment owner. But that means the government (they've already ordered no evictions during the crisis which is essentially a license to not pay rent) is ordering landlords to foot the bill. No, the government needs to be subsidizing these people's rent if they can't pay it.

I used to be a landlord, one rental, I no longer am. But were I to still own said rental, why is it my responsibility to pay this charity-case's rent?

It already sucked that the new left on the City Council wanted no evictions allowed for 5 months in the winter. Again, why is it the landlords' requirement to pay people's rent?

That's not what socialism is about people. And willy-nilly taxing rental home owners, what is that about? Rental owners are not collecting the community taxes. They vary from wealthy LLCs to barely getting by landlords, sometimes even people renting rooms in their houses so they can pay the mortgage.

The stereotype that "landowners" are rich evil wealthy people sucks.

Here's an example of what I mean. I had a dentist that owed me a bit over $300 for a needle stick in his office I took care of. He didn't pay after several months so I contacted them. His wife's lawyer called, the guy had killed himself. Lawyer asked if I wouldn't just drop the charges because of his poor wife....whatever.

Sad as it was, why was it my job to pay into a charity for this woman? I give to charity every year:ACLU, Planned Parenthood, some political candidates. Sad wife was not on my list of charities I donate to. I told him so. I took some off the bill for my labor, which if I had chosen, I would have found a Habitat for Humanity project to donate my labor to.

Landlords' wealth (or debt) is not part of the collective coffers. We all pay into the collective coffers, that is where rent assistance should come from. Whether it's a winter eviction or an unemployment during a crisis crisis, we need to be paying to assist these people out of the collective coffer, not out of someone's rental income because the ignorant 'youth' they interviewed on the news this afternoon thinks "landowners" are all wealthy, or something.

[Bit of a side note but related because this is where Seattle and King County are looking to for help with the debt the COVID crisis is costing them] And I feel the same way about the County and City wanting to charge the biggest employers in this state a payroll tax. Instead of the income tax they can't get past the GOP legislature, someone came up with the idea of calling it a payroll head tax. They couldn't get it through because it was an income tax but now they are trying again because the city and county need money.

A wealth tax, sure. A different set up with capital gains tax, that will do. If we aren't going to rescind the estate tax giveaway, then charge the bastards for the capital gains they are being allowed to erase as the wealth changes hands. You can carve out exemptions for the very small number of people who would have to sell the family business to pay said gains taxes. A 6 million dollar exemption takes care of most of that.

Rescind the tax cuts for the rich that both GW and Trump/McConnell got passed before a major crisis occurred that shot the deficit through the roof: absolutely!

But don't pass tax bills off willy nilly onto private citizens with these rent relief bills that don't take the landlords into consideration who have to make up the cost with what is essentially an unfair and very unevenly charged tax.

And yes, I am still a Progressive.
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You simultaneously demand your own wealth in the form of property not be taken from you by government action for the sake of others while saying you want my wealth in the form of shares to be taken from me! You don't see that as hypocritical? Why should I be penalized just because you invested your wealth differently?
 
TragicMonkey said:
You simultaneously demand your own wealth in the form of property not be taken from you by government action for the sake of others while saying you want my wealth in the form of shares to be taken from me! You don't see that as hypocritical? Why should I be penalized just because you invested your wealth differently?
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I'm not sure I grasp where she is saying to take your money? The wealth tax?

I would assume that the wealth tax would apply to all measureable wealth, including real estate, and not just shares. Maybe I missed something. (As an aside, I dislike the idea of a wealth tax)


My gut tells me that an eviction moratorium or a rent forgiveness period is a bad idea, especially the rent forgiveness period. On the other hand, an eviction moratorium mostly encapsulates good business practice at this time. There are people who cannot pay their rent because of short term unemployment. However, the vast majority of unemployed can walk right back into jobs if the work restrictions were removed. Evicting them doesn't make any sense in most cases because it's not like there are a horde of renters who really want to take their place and have the ability to pay. It would be better business to keep the non-paying tenant, and try to recover some of the rent at a later time. However, an actual law that prohibits you from evicting people is an invitation to abuse. People perfectly able to pay may very well just stop paying because....why not? It's effectively a no interest loan, which I might very well want.

Similarly for mandatory non-foreclosures.
 
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When a reporter tweets something the Trump administration doesn't like, the result is predictable: Punish the reporter.

A reporter travelling with the Vice President has been kicked off of Air Force Two because he tweeted that the VP staff was well aware of the mask requirement at Mayo Clinic, where Pence went maskless. It was one of those commie pinko Voice of America reporters.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/entert...tens-action-against-reporter-who-15238833.php
 
Meadmaker said:
I'm not sure I grasp where she is saying to take your money? The wealth tax?

I would assume that the wealth tax would apply to all measureable wealth, including real estate, and not just shares. Maybe I missed something.
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My indignation prevented me from wording it clearly. I meant that she insisted on not having any interference with her bloodsucking landlordery but has no issues with messing with capital gains. For some reason owning real estate and renting it out deserves protection, but to hell with anyone who instead owns shares and dares to profit from selling them. A tax upon thee and not upon me, in other words, is what I detected.


My gut tells me that an eviction moratorium or a rent forgiveness period is a bad idea, especially the rent forgiveness period. On the other hand, an eviction moratorium mostly encapsulates good business practice at this time. There are people who cannot pay their rent because of short term unemployment. However, the vast majority of unemployed can walk right back into jobs if the work restrictions were removed. Evicting them doesn't make any sense in most cases because it's not like there are a horde of renters who really want to take their place and have the ability to pay. It would be better business to keep the non-paying tenant, and try to recover some of the rent at a later time. However, an actual law that prohibits you from evicting people is an invitation to abuse. People perfectly able to pay may very well just stop paying because....why not? It's effectively a no interest loan, which I might very well want.

Similarly for mandatory non-foreclosures.
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I agree. Rather than not paying rent there should be a mechanism by which renters who cannot pay due to the emergency can get a grant paid to the landlord. No reason the landlords should eat the loss, they're just as much victims of the emergency as the renters are. But everyone who can afford their rent ought to pay it.
 
Meadmaker said:
When a reporter tweets something the Trump administration doesn't like, the result is predictable: Punish the reporter.

A reporter travelling with the Vice President has been kicked off of Air Force Two because he tweeted that the VP staff was well aware of the mask requirement at Mayo Clinic, where Pence went maskless. It was one of those commie pinko Voice of America reporters.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/entert...tens-action-against-reporter-who-15238833.php
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It's disrespectful in the extreme to accuse Pence and his staff of actually knowing something! Their official position is that Pence knows absolutely nothing about anything, ever!
 
Meadmaker said:
...On the other hand, an eviction moratorium mostly encapsulates good business practice at this time...
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We touched on this in another thread. At least in New York, the eviction 'moratorium' is kind of de facto. Because of the pandemic the housing courts are closed. City marshals are not serving paper, either, and for the same reason. A property owner is unable to get an eviction order issued or have an existing one enforced. If a tenant isn't paying rent there is no legal remedy right at the moment.
 
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