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30 Pedophiles Arrested in Virginia

I guess it would help if it was actually correct.

I think smartcooky is not really paying attention to what I have said. I've read my post over and over just to be sure it was clear. Unless I've lost my mind, I've explained it pretty clear. I'm not sure why he insist that the record would have to be changed.
 
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I guess it would help if it was actually correct.

Oh God, not another one who doesn't get it?

Matthew, you are missing the whole point. Mike's claim is that the Police used a higher age, say 18 to hook the creep, then switched a lower age, say 14 to reel him in.

It didn't happen. Mike claims it did, but so far I he has remained somewhat work-shy about finding the evidence to back his claim.

Furthermore, it does not take Einstein to work out why it didn't happen - because it would be pointless for the Police to do that... they would achieve nothing, because by starting with an age of 18, their whole theory the crime is undone at the starting gate.

They lied about the bait girl's age in this case, too! She wasn't 14, she said she was, that's a lie.

OK, Captain Oblivious, what is your grand plan? Use real 12, 13, 14 year old girls to talk to these creeps? Is that what you'd like to see?

Of course they lie when the agent says she's 14. That's the whole idea - they're setting a trap for the scumbags.

Sheesh!
 
Oh God, not another one who doesn't get it?

Matthew, you are missing the whole point. Mike's claim is that the Police used a higher age, say 18 to hook the creep, then switched a lower age, say 14 to reel him in.

But, apparently that is what happened in tbe case that I linked to earlier. The accused responded to an ad on an adult web site that used photos of an adult. Then the accused was sent a selfie of the adult woman. As the jury ruled, the police used the prospect of him hooking up with the adult to lure him in before switching to the lower age.
 
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Actual police-stings though, no. Or rather, I really need to see some actual examples of this happening. It's not that I believe police "never behave badly", it's just that inventing internet pedophiles to arrest for PR would frankly be doing it the hard way.

Heh. You must not know about how in the bad old days the largest producer of kiddie porn was the federal government. They'd solicit people by mail, asking if they'd like some, then send it to them and arrest them for receiving it. The whole thing was finally shut down, for several obvious reasons.
 
But, apparently that is what happened in tbe case that I linked to earlier.

Go back and read the article again... that is NOT, repeat NOT what happened.

Mike81's claim is that the Police officer participating in the sting said she was 18, and then once the target was on the hook , reduced the age to 14 after the target was already on his way to meet the girl... his exact worlds were...
"There have been stories about similar sting operations where the "young girl" said she was of age. As the accused is on the way to see her, she informs him that she is underage."​
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13069298&postcount=40

In the story you linked to the Police officer participating in the sting said she was 14 right from the get-go, and never changed that age....

“He responded to an ad on Backpage.com looking for a prostitute,” Brody (the target's lawyer) said. “The ad was created by ICAC and it contained pictures of Hayleee Peacock, a 26 year-old GBI agent. 'According to the agents, many people responded to the ad who were not looking for children but most of them turned away once the agent said she was 14.'"​

....and it was only when she sent the target a photo that he tumbled to the fact he wasn't dealing with a 14 year old....

"Ji Won (the target) initially asked the agent to send him a selfie so he could be sure that the picture in the ad was real as many ads on Backpage contain fake pictures, Brody said. The agent said she was 14 and he was shocked since he had never run into a minor on Backpage before."​

The Police never changed the claimed age of the bait-girl at all. Mike's claim is not in any way at all similar to the article you linked.

ETA: just to be clear, Mike's claim is that the police acted fraudulently to try to entrap the target, while in the article you linked the Police acted correctly, but were somewhat incompetent in using an agent who didn't look the part.
 
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NO THEY WOULD NOT! THEY DON'T CARE IF THE RECORD SHOWS THEY ORIGINALLY CLAIMED TO BE 18. ALL THAT USUALLY MATTERS IS THAT THEY THEN LATER SAID THEY WERE 13. THEY CAN ARGUE THAT SINCE THEY SAID 13 BEFORE THEY MET IN PERSON, THAT THE MAN KNEW SHE WAS 13. THEY CAN SAY HE CAME TO MEET A 13 YEAR OLD NO MATTER WHAT SHE SAID AT FIRST. IS THIS SO DAMN HARD TO UNDERSTAND? THEY SAY 18 AT FIRST TO LURE MORE MEN IN.
YOU might not care that the police said 18 then switched to 13. But the case would still have to get by a jury.

The age change would probably lead to an element of uncertainty in the trial that the police would want to avoid... would 12 jurors automatically assume like you that once the girl said 13 it was game over or could they run into at least 1 juror who considers it entrapment? (Thus turning a slam-dunk case into a hung jury)

Plus, if pedophiles are so common on line, why waste time going after guys who were not searching for children in the first place?



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YOU might not care that the police said 18 then switched to 13. But the case would still have to get by a jury.

The age change would probably lead to an element of uncertainty in the trial that the police would want to avoid... would 12 jurors automatically assume like you that once the girl said 13 it was game over or could they run into at least 1 juror who considers it entrapment? (Thus turning a slam-dunk case into a hung jury)

Plus, if pedophiles are so common on line, why waste time going after guys who were not searching for children in the first place?

Precisely!!!
 
Plus, if pedophiles are so common on line, why waste time going after guys who were not searching for children in the first place



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Maybe because it's not as common as some seem to think or the police will use any means necessary to lure people in so they can look tough on crime?

That's like saying why would they bother planting drugs on someone when there are plenty of drug users to catch.
 
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Yeah because police are never dishonest and DA's never just care about getting a conviction or looking like they are being tough on crime. So be surprised all you want. That does not mean that is is not true.

Yeah, I think you should go back to your point of regretting bringing this up.
 
Yeah, I think you should go back to your point of regretting bringing this up.

In the article that was posted earlier, they posted an ad on an adult website. This implies that the girl is an adult. You think that there are not men who got convicted by them using this technique? You think it is a stretch to say sometimes they flat out say they are 18 at first? Again much more ridiculous things happen here in the USA and people's lives are ruined for it.
 
Some of you are apparently clueless about the USA justice system. I know you probably say that about me, but oh well. I'm done. Have fun talking about how wrong I am and believing that you can't possibly be wrong.
 
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YOU might not care that the police said 18 then switched to 13. But the case would still have to get by a jury.

Only if it goes to trial. Lots of people get pressured into plea bargains even when the case against them is weak. Even the threat of having your name publicly dragged through the mud can be very coercive, especially on a charge as toxic to your reputation as pedophilia.

The age change would probably lead to an element of uncertainty in the trial that the police would want to avoid... would 12 jurors automatically assume like you that once the girl said 13 it was game over or could they run into at least 1 juror who considers it entrapment? (Thus turning a slam-dunk case into a hung jury)

It doesn't have to go to trial. Hell, it doesn't even have to lead to a plea bargain, though I bet a lot of them will. The eventual fates of the people arrested in this sting will never get the kind of headlines that the initial arrests got. If some of the cases are eventually dropped, or go to trial and lead to dismissal, well, the police still got the headlines they wanted.

Plus, if pedophiles are so common on line, why waste time going after guys who were not searching for children in the first place?

Low hanging fruit. These are the easiest perps to nab. The guys with the really sick desires, who want their victims to look sexually immature (rather than just not caring about age of consent for someone who does look sexually mature), probably do a better job at hiding their tracks, and are also probably much fewer in number.

Were these guys entrapped? I don't know. There are sick people out there, some of them are pretty damned stupid, and the cops do succeed at catching some of them. But without knowing what exactly went down in the sting, entrapment is a definite possibility as well. The police have done worse.
 
Err no.

While it is true that girls do lie about their ages (they do this a lot - having been a barman in a pub, I can personally attest to this) I would be very surprised if Police sting operations used this tactic.

This is an argument from incredulity. Sometimes incredulity is deserved, but not in this case. It happens.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/08/sexual-predator-stings/13770553/
"When men, many of them younger than 25 with no criminal history, respond, officers switch the bait and typically indicate their age is really 14 or 15 years old. However, sometimes the storyline isn't switched until the men, who were looking for legal love, already start falling for an undercover agent."​

Their whole point is to catch men with a predilection under-aged girls.

That is naive. Their whole point is to do a job and get paid. What's the job? Arrest perps. There is a strong incentive built into the system to expand who qualifies as a perp. We might want them to catch men with a prediliction for under-age sex, and that might be what they even tell themselves they are doing, but it's not the way the system actually works.

Using a girl over the age of consent totally defeats the point of the sting,

Only if you mistake what the point is.

and the moment it comes out in court that the bait was of consenting age, the victim of the sting has no case to answer - case dismissed.

No. mike81 is right about that. That isn't the way the law works.

Consider for a moment a case of actual pedophilia. An underage girl says she's 18, a man gets interested in her, she reveals that she's actually 15 and below the age of consent, and they have sex. Did the man violate the law? Yes. What if they didn't have sex but he tried to have sex? Yup, that's still against the law.

So if it's illegal in an actual case, is it illegal in a sting operation? Well, things get a little more complicated. But they don't become more complicated because there was no violation of the law. They become more complicated for two reasons. First, law enforcement is not permitted to induce illegal behavior, and in a bait and switch where the "victim's" age is switched, that may have happened. Second, if there is no actual victim, no actual sex with anyone, then the law depends entirely upon intent. So what the perp believed about the age of the "victim" is critical. And switching the age confuses that matter.

But jut because it's confused doesn't mean the perp has nothing to answer for in court. The perp has to convince a jury that he didn't believe the switch. But if he really didn't, that doesn't mean he can convince a jury that he didn't. Nor is it harmless to get arrested and have to go to trial even if you are cleared of the charges. For an example of why a perp might not believe the age switch:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...-johns-protest-charges-predator-tag/13754207/

Lee admits he planned to pay for sex with an adult and said several factors led him to believe the woman at the other end of the text message was 18 or over, despite her claims.

How else would she book a hotel room? If she was really a runaway, wouldn't her parents track her down by her cell phone or credit card?

The decoy asked him if he would be willing to pay more because she was younger than the ad stated. Lee attempted to use marijuana as a bargaining chip rather in lieu of upping the price, according to the police report. Lee believed the woman was just trying lie//lying// about her age to squeeze more money from him, he said.​
 
My understanding is that entrapment occurs when a police officer* pressures or tricks someone into committing a crime they would not voluntarily commit.

An undercover police officer claiming to be underage, and pressuring a john to set aside their principles and hook up anyway, would be entrapment.

An undercover officer claiming to be underage, and not demurring when a john voluntarily pursues a hookup anyway, is not entrapment. It's just a good old-fashioned sting.

I guess one could try to equivocate between johns who are trying to make sure the hookup is safe and not a sting, versus johns who are trying to stay true to their principles. But I hope that kind of bad faith argumentation doesn't come up here.

Source: https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633
 
In the case I linked to, the police lead the accused into believing that the prostitute was an adult ... then later had her claim to be younger. Why is it so important that they didn't say she was some specific age (even though they did list her age as "69" in the ad)?

The jury apparently didn't think that not explicitly saying she was 18 was important. They still acquitted the accused.
 
In the case I linked to, the police lead the accused into believing that the prostitute was an adult ... then later had her claim to be younger. Why is it so important that they didn't say she was some specific age (even though they did list her age as "69" in the ad)?

The jury apparently didn't think that not explicitly saying she was 18 was important. They still acquitted the accused.

The case you linked to doesn't look like entrapment to me. Whatever the age originally claimed, prospective johns were subsequently told a different age and given a chance to back out on that basis.

He got arrested because he chose to continue after being told the new age. He got acquitted because he convinced the jury that he knew that she wasn't really that young.

It seems like maybe sloppy/overeager police work, leading to exactly one of those cases that are the reason we have jury trials in the first place.

---

Also, I'm not sure a sting would work by openly advertising underage hookers. The publicly-facing lead-in has to look legit. Once you've got a prospective john on the line, that's when you introduce the "secret menu" of shady and/or illegal services.
 
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Heh. You must not know about how in the bad old days the largest producer of kiddie porn was the federal government.

That's distribution, not production. If they were producing child porn, the problems are even more obvious.
 
The case you linked to doesn't look like entrapment to me. Whatever the age originally claimed, prospective johns were subsequently told a different age and given a chance to back out on that basis.

He got arrested because he chose to continue after being told the new age. He got acquitted because he convinced the jury that he knew that she wasn't really that young.
...
It seems like maybe sloppy/overeager police work, leading to exactly one of those cases that are the reason we have jury trials in the first place.

I wasn't trying to judge whether it was entrapment or not. It doesn't match my understanding of entrapment. But, I think it does match the scenario mike81 described.

With the amount of publicity these kind of stings get, I wouldn't be surprised if some police departments undertake them without a good understanding of how they need to be done.
 
Legal and ethical questions aside, random virtue testing is just bad policy. It's a consequence of stats-driven policing, but it makes nonsense out of the underlying data by introducing unrealistic opportunities for crime. You're reducing the apparent crime rate by artificially inflating it first.

Same basic problem with leaving an unlocked truck full of sneakers in a poor neighborhood overnight and arresting those who steal them, or grooming angry young people to become would-be terrorists and then arresting them for trying to buy explosives. This stuff is security theater with graver consequences, and a product of Manichean thinking about crime.
 

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