Cont: Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3

xjx388 said:
Trump is ignorant and he thinks he is smarter than he really is. No argument. He engaged in some ignorant speculation. He’s dumb and dumb is dangerous in a POTUS.

Pathology is not a necessary ingredient in the **** salad Trump is serving us.
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It is when you observe he cannot behave any other way.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Do you not see any contradiction in those words?

Should medical professionals observing the obvious not voice their professional predictions as to how Trump's pathology is guiding his actions?
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No, they shouldn’t. They should talk about his actual actions, statements and policies and maybe give us an educated opinion about what the likely outcome is in their experience. They should not diagnose him, say he’s mentally ill or otherwise wear their white coat when doing so. They should also preface their commentary with something like, “I have not personally examined Trump so this isn’t a professional opinion...”

IOW, their professional status should not be used to lend undue weight to their opinions.
 
xjx388 said:
I wonder if you can elucidate what you see as the difference. “Dangerously mentally ill,” is a pretty good shorthand for “insane” in a clinical sense.
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Not really. There is no medical definition for 'insane'; it's only a legal definition:

Insanity is now a purely legal term, denoting a condition due to which a person lacks criminal responsibility for a crime and therefore cannot be convicted of it.
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However, in past medical usage 'insanity' referred to severe mental disorders such as bi-polar, schizophrenia and other psychoses where the person was not rational or living in reality.
On the other hand, mental illness runs from mild to severe. OCD is a mental illness but can be mild or severe depending on how negatively it impacts a person's life.

Trump isn't insane, but he does have NPD which is a mental disorder.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
So asking scientists to try injecting disinfectants?
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SEW you could watch the vid to find the answer yourself.

Skeptic Ginger said:
Asking scientists to do anything, Trump is a Dufus. Does he believe his passing on some ignorant suggestion to doctors is a useful thing to do?
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It's his attempt to look smart for the audience.

Skeptic Ginger said:
Trump is asking doctors and scientists to do X because in Trump's pathologic fantasy, these ideas of magical cures are real.
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You gotta be more skeptical, Trumps main concern is looking smart, I doubt he's got so far as having an opinion one way or the other, he'll just follow his nose.
 
xjx388 said:
You are questioning me about something irrelevant to what I’ve been saying. I wouldn’t object if the VP or the Cabinet initiated 25th amendment proceedings to have him removed just based on his utter cluelessness, demonstrated incompetence and public inanity.

That has nothing to do with my argument here. I’m objecting to medical professionals issuing public diagnoses/evaluations for which there is no basis according to the ethics and standards of their professions. I’m objecting to “professional opinions” that are not based on professional practice.

I’ve made my layperson opinion about Trump very clear. I have no objection to lay opinions or if medical professionals would speak out as citizens and not medical professionals.
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You would support the VP and the Cabinet were they to make the determination to remove the POTUS, even though they are not mental health professionals. (Or at least you say so, safely knowing full well such will never occur.)

But you steadfastly rail against the warnings of professionals who see, with decades to draw upon, *not so very much less* than the people in Trump's orbit.

Your argument seems almost to be predicated on the notion that Trump just 'yesterday', figuratively speaking, sprung up out of the ground. We all have available to us a remarkably detailed history of this man, what with his need for attention.

Why so wedded to the notion that a professional should never exercise a duty to warn? With a cabal of enablers, opportunists and lackeys who will not take Trump to task, and indeed who actively work to keep him installed in power, then even the last resort of an election may fail.

And knowing Trump would never submit to examination, that only demands a 'remote' assessment, for lack of the preferred mode.
 
Lurch said:
You would support the VP and the Cabinet were they to make the determination to remove the POTUS, even though they are not mental health professionals. (Or at least you say so, safely knowing full well such will never occur.)
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I would support that. Removal is a political process. There is no existing mechanism to remove a President because he is “obviously mentally ill.” Mental illness is not a criteria for either disqualifying a candidate OR removing an elected official.

But you steadfastly rail against the warnings of professionals who see, with decades to draw upon, *not so very much less* than the people in Trump's orbit.
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I rail against the misapplication of medical science and the flouting of medical ethics. No more, mo less.

Your argument seems almost to be predicated on the notion that Trump just 'yesterday', figuratively speaking, sprung up out of the ground. We all have available to us a remarkably detailed history of this man, what with his need for attention.
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Not my position at all. We are all familiar with Trump. The voters had all the information they needed to either vote for him or not. They will again in November. The Yale Group didn’t speak out before the election and their subsequent warnings have largely been ignored. Trump may very well win again, despite actually seeing him in action as POTUS. I am not sure what value there is in warnings from medical professionals who aren’t following professional standards or professional ethics.

Why so wedded to the notion that a professional should never exercise a duty to warn?
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They should: When they have specific information about a specific, identifiable threat to specific, identifiable individuals. The Yale Group has not provided that. They speak in generalities.
With a cabal of enablers, opportunists and lackeys who will not take Trump to task, and indeed who actively work to keep him installed in power, then even the last resort of an election may fail.
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This is a political problem, not a medical problem.

And knowing Trump would never submit to examination, that only demands a 'remote' assessment, for lack of the preferred mode.
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There is no situation in medicine in which you substitute an unproven method for a proven method.
 
xjx388 said:
I rail against the misapplication of medical science and the flouting of medical ethics.
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Do you also rail against the president's misapplication of what he seems to believe is medical science?
 
xjx388 said:
How does “pathology” change the flavor of the salad, so to speak? There is still **** in the salad either way.
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He cannot stop, he cannot help himself. When you understand that you can see all his actions are because he's mentally ill.

In all the Trump threads people in this forum are still saying things like he's doing X for his base.

Sometimes that is true like his pandering to the Evangelicals and hugging the flag. His wall and some of his racism is pandering. I say some because some of it is his own racism.

But the majority of the time Trump is only about Trump. There is no more behind his actions than that.

It's absurd to 'not talk about it as a professional'. It would be disengenious.


You need to reassess your heel digging in here.

Dr Lee is very passionate about her obligation to speak out about Trump. Co-authored with Thomas Singer, MD
Mental Health Experts Urge Revision of the Goldwater Rule - Psychiatrists formally propose revising a highly divisive rule.
Following a debate at the American College of Psychiatrists’ annual meeting, the audience was provided with four options: retain the Goldwater rule, abandon the Goldwater rule, modify the Goldwater rule, or abstain from voting. A large majority of the audience voted for a modification, overwhelming all three of the other options (Bosworth, 2018). Dr. Steven Sharfstein, a past president of the APA and a paragon of ethics in resisting governmental pressure during the Iraq War to modify ethical guidelines to allow for torture, as the American Psychological Association had done (Ackerman, 2015), was in that majority. A poll by Psychiatric Times specifically addressing the instance of Trump yielded tenuous support for the APA’s position at best (Moffic, 2018).
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BTW, this is not about profiting from the book:
More than two dozen mental health experts tried to address this issue in a public service book (with all royalties going into a public fund), The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, which I edited and to which Dr. Thomas Singer contributed. The book arose out of an ethics conference at Yale, with Drs. Robert Jay Lifton, Judith Herman, and James Gilligan, also co-authors, as its principal speakers (Milligan, 2017).
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There's more but it will have to wait, I can't keep my eyes open.
 
At this point, all the people who are so insane that they still think Trump isn't should be busy drinking or injecting bleach, trying to come up with ways to expose their lungs to UV light, and maybe topping it off with a bit of hydroxychloroquine for dessert.
However, that appears to be the point where a bit of sanity returns.
 
Trump says he never got out of first grade:

"When I look at myself in the first grade and I look at myself now, I’m basically the same. The temperament is not that different."
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Now its been a while since I had a child development or abnormal psych class, but this should tell you something.

Quote is from an interview with a biographer in 2015.
 
slyjoe said:
Trump says he never got out of first grade:



Now its been a while since I had a child development or abnormal psych class, but this should tell you something.

Quote is from an interview with a biographer in 2015.
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Stable genius. :rolleyes:

Actually this fits with his imaginary self: he has always been perfect, fantastic, [fill in more superlatives ad nauseum].
 
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That Trump has a mental illness/disorder is not questionable by anyone who is not deluding himself or just plain stupid. He meets so many of the criteria for NPD that he could be the poster boy for it. We see it on a daily basis. I don't care if he's been formally diagnosed or not because the fact is he would never agree to being evaluated. A doctor doesn't need to SEE a compound fracture in person to diagnose it. All this Goldwater Rule bickering is irrelevant. The man is mentally ill. Period.
 
Doc Gartner weighs in again:
Like in a relationship, Donald Trump is the abuser. He is the husband or father who is abusing his partner or children or other relatives. The American people are like a woman who is leaving her abuser. She tells her abuser, "That's it! I am done with you!" She has her keys in hand and is opening the door of the house or apartment to finally leave. What happens? The democidal maniac Donald Trump will attack us, badly. Make no mistake. Donald Trump is going to find a way to attack and cause great harm to the American people if he believes that he will lose the 2020 election.
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https://www.salon.com/2020/04/25/ps...-sadist-who-is-actively-engaging-in-sabotage/
 
Look, the nitwit can't even stand in front of the cameras with a sheepish grin on his face and say, "Injecting disinfectant, did I say that out loud? Ooops, don't do that."

Instead, he blames everyone else, lies about what he said, then goes off and pouts like a six-year-old in the middle of a health crisis when the country needs an actual leader.

He's nuts.
 
Resume said:
Look, the nitwit can't even stand in front of the cameras with a sheepish grin on his face and say, "Injecting disinfectant, did I say that out loud? Ooops, don't do that."

Instead, he blames everyone else, lies about what he said, then goes off and pouts like a six-year-old in the middle of a health crisis when the country needs an actual leader.

He's nuts.
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He's also the kind of leader that 40%-45% of the US population seem to like and want - even if only a little over half of those can be bothered to vote for him (then again only a little over half bothered to turn out at all).

President Donald Trump didn't appear from nowhere, he's not the cause, he's merely a symptom of what ails the US (and IMO what also ails the UK, Brazil and other countries).
 
The Don said:
He's also the kind of leader that 40%-45% of the US population seem to like and want - even if only a little over half of those can be bothered to vote for him (then again only a little over half bothered to turn out at all).

President Donald Trump didn't appear from nowhere, he's not the cause, he's merely a symptom of what ails the US (and IMO what also ails the UK, Brazil and other countries).
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"This guy is a complete buffoon, but he hates black people like me, so imma vote for him and damn the consequences."
 
dann said:
Do you also rail against the president's misapplication of what he seems to believe is medical science?
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Sure . . . but he's not a doctor. I don't hold him to their standards. I hold him to the standards of an elected official. I find his behavior is dangerous and unethical because he fails to listen to his medical advisors and incorporate their expertise in his thinking. He thinks he's smarter than them and his word is gold. Even so, there is no real ethical code or standard of practice for elected officials. My analysis is just based on what I think our elected officials should do, whereas my analysis of the doctors is based on the standards and ethics of their profession.
 
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