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I challenge you:cite ONE paper that discerns Science from Pseudoscience wth CERTAINTY

Larry Laudan's paper "The Demise of the Demarcation Problem" which was mentioned here in passing, illustrates for me my reservations about the philosophy of science.

Laudan begins by talking about the way Aristotle distinguished between something that was scientific and non-scientific. This is nonsense to begin with, when did Aristotle ever make such a distinction? What term did he use in Ancient Greek that was "scientific"? Although we see references to "scientia experimentalis" in the Middle Ages, the general use of "scientist" and "scientific" did not begin until much, much later and so this is an anachronism even if we can find a comparable term in Attic.

In any case he manages to get Aristotle completely backwards. He claims that Aristotle insisted that all scientific claims must be derived from first principles and that it must be infallible.

But Aristotle actually said that claims about the world cannot be derived from first principles and that the principles, if they can be found at all, must be derived using an inductive process over empirical data (Posterior Analytics Book II part 19). Moreover he never claimed the infallibility of any of his claims. For example in the History of Animals when he talks about how animals should be classified he goes over all sorts of systems and discusses why they don't work and concludes (paraphrasing from memory) that all that can be done is to 'do our best to understand the reasons people classified animals, for example, as birds and fishes, in the first place". That is neither an infallibilist claim, nor is it deriving from first principles.

But Laudan builds on this a claim that astronomers were denied the classification of "scientist" and were regarded as craftsmen instead because they tested their claims. This is again wildly anachronistic and in any case Aristotle consistently said that conclusions must match empirical observations or be wrong (although his own conclusions sometimes fell short of his own rule).

He claims that a large part of the furore over Copernicus and Kepler is that they were claiming to make astronomy scientific again. He appears to have simply made this up. The furore (for which Galileo bore the brunt) was over the contradiction to scripture and to Aristotle.

He also says that in the time of Galileo and Newton and right up to the 19th century, scientific claims were regarded as infallible. I know of no evidence that anyone thought such a thing at the time, never mind that it was generally believed.

So Laudan's conclusion (right or wrong) is based on a largely fictional view of history.

But a philosopher of science is free to do that and there is nothing in philosophy to stop him.
 
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Here are some of the things pseudoscience does that distinguish it from science - the list is by no means exhaustive.

1. HYPOTHESES & THEORIES

Pseudoscience: Starts with the hypothesis, and then looks exclusively for supporting evidence. Any contradictory evidence is dismissed or hand-waved away in order to keep the hypothesis intact.

Real Science: Also starts with the hypothesis, but then looks for evidence that would either support or refute the hypotheses. The hypothesis is then adjusted to fit the facts.


2. REVISIONS, ALTERATIONS AND AMENDMENTS

Pseudoscience: Books and publications are rarely, if ever, altered or revised. That is because the original hypothesis is considered immutable.

Science: New editions of textbooks, are usually reprinted every few years due to the accumulation and incorporation of new discoveries, ideas, facts and insights.


3.VALIDATION CRITERIA

Pseudoscience: Subjective validation from anecdotes. A lack of controlled experimentation.

Science: Objective validation. Controlled experiments and testing and the use if the scientific method to obtain meaningful results.


4. SELF-CONTRADICTION

Pseudoscience: Almost always contradicts itself. This is sometimes a consequence of #2. above as new evidence comes to light. Such contradiction is dismissed or ignored.

Science:
Science sometimes gets contradictory results too, but these become the basis for asking new questions and further investigation.
 
This is awfully familiar. It feels like arguing with a creationist who insists you cite a paper proving that dogs turn into cats or admit that evolution is a hoax.

I know that well. And as many times as you try to explain what is wrong with the question, the more they will repeat the question in larger and different coloured fonts.
 
Hi alfaniner, welcome!

Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.

I like that.

Please, for sake of argument, let's imagine the following:

- Scientist H investigates an hypothesis: if the relationship between Matter and Consciousness might mean that a certain amount of Matter diluted in water might heal a certain disease, for Matter and Consciousness might be one and the same thing.

He makes 10 experiments and he fails. He changes the conditions in his experiment. (i.e.: instead of making it at sea level he conducts his experiment 4.000 meters above sea level)
He makes 100 experiments and he fails. He changes the conditions in his experiment. (i.e.: he adds a bit of salt to each dilution).
He makes 1000 experiments and he fails. He changes the conditions in his experiment.
He makes 1000000 experiments and he fails. He changes the conditions in his experiment.

1. Is he self-correcting himself, hence being scientific?
2. What's the number of experiments that he has to make in order to ascertain that his hypothesis doesn't work?
3. In what particular way is the hypothesis that Matter and Consciousness might be one and the same would be self-contradicting?

Thanks! :-D

How would the existence of a relationship between matter and consciousness indicate that an amount of matter diluted in water might heal any diseases?

What exactly is the experiment the scientist uses to test his hypothesis regarding the relationship between matter and consciousness?
 
If by "true" you mean "in accordance with fact or reality" then, as a true skeptic that I consider myself, the only truth I can be certain of is that I'm having the feeling [fact] that I don't know... and I could even be wrong about that.

And you?
I have been reading this thread and I am just dropping in to say that I do not have the impression, from your posts, that you think you could be wrong!
 
Here are some of the things pseudoscience does that distinguish it from science - the list is by no means exhaustive.

Hi smartcooky, welcome.

Is there any particular thing that is necessary and sufficient so that a particular investigation can be considered science/pseudoscience? Which one?

Thanks.
 
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8 pages of entertaining debate and no one of those who happily address some investigators as pseudoscientists with CERTAINTY (=as a black or white designation, beyond reasonable doubt) has answered question #1 yet:



"Cite ONE paper that discerns Science from Pseudoscience with CERTAINTY."

As of now, all the evidence proves that I'm winning the challenge.

But I might be wrong: hence, please cite ONE paper, change my mind and win the debate.


Thanks.


SCIENTISM prevails.


OR realize that you are arbitraryly using a term that you don't justify and stop addressing some investigators as pseudoscients, for, by not providing us with a rational and logical way to you are proving that you DO NOT have a reason (=a Demarcation Criterion) to justify your

BELIEFS.



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;)
 
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Before you cite Sagan again, you should probably read “The Fine Art of Baloney Detection”, devhdb.
 
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This one got to the “declaring victory” stage quicker than they usually do, didn’t it?
"I challenge you to cite one paper that discerns day from night with certainty!"

Lots of posts explaining why, although it's difficult to draw a line between day and night during dusk and dawn, there is still a meaningful distinction that can be made between them.

"Nobody cited a paper! I win!"

It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.
 
*waiting with bated breath to see what woo will be flaunted now*

My money is on OP being a flat earther.
 
*waiting with bated breath to see what woo will be flaunted now*

My money is on OP being a flat earther.
I think there are sufficient hints to be reasonably sure he/she is a homeopath.

Though that doesn't rule out them being a flat earther as well, of course. There's a mountain of objective evidence against both, so if they can ignore one they can surely also ignore the other.
 
The large fonts, block capitals and changing text colours lend an air of nutcase, but sadly the demarcation problem between sane and unhinged means that it is impossible to tell WITH CERTAINTY.
 
The large fonts, block capitals and changing text colours lend an air of nutcase, but sadly the demarcation problem between sane and unhinged means that it is impossible to tell WITH CERTAINTY.
Reading these on Tapatalk only reinforces the effect since it ignored these codes and makes it unreadable.
 
devhdb said:
My philosophical and intellectual position is that there is NO WAY to tell science from pseudoscience with certainty.


So forget about the demarcation problem. In truth, at limit, what Feyerabend et altri propose (there should be no demarcation between science and pseudo-science / metaphysics) is OK in a fully rational world, bad ideas would die on their own and we wouldn't need to try to make a demarcation between science and pseudo science (the Feyerabendian non-prescriptive lists that hierarchize relatively the research programs would actually work; by the way Feyerabend is not a relativist). Unfortunately our world is far from that, we actually need demarcation criteria, be them weaker than what we would like, if we want a healthy science.

At the practical level philosophers and scientists do not have that big problems to recognize pseudo-science, if a theory is sufficiently 'far' from the current body of accepted scientific methods and knowledge (while being presented as science by its supporters) then it is branded as pseudo-science. I think this is justifiable, as a working heuristic, but only as much as a healthy fallibilism is always there (since this is far from the clear cut criterion which to make a strong, once and forever, difference between science and pseudo-science we have always to be prepared to make important changes in our 'web' of scientific knowledge and methods, nothing is immune to replacement, as in the revised version of Quinean holism).
 
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devhbd, you set the parameters tightly within a space you knew there would be no papers found. You also chose the one medium you wanted us to use.

You set us to a hard standard while taking the loose stance yourself, where doubts can weasel you out of any possible loss.


I am not well versed in sciences and even less in philosophy, but I can see a fishtrap before I go into it.

Level the rules out for both sides and see how it works.
The crew here has done that for you, if you choose to see it. Many times.
 

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