I challenge you:cite ONE paper that discerns Science from Pseudoscience wth CERTAINTY

Isn't that just a banal statement of obvious fact?

Or can banal statements of obvious facts be good philosophical points?

As I pointed out earlier, we use lots of terms for which there is no clear cut seperations, but are nevertheless useful distinctions, the example I gave earlier is Epistēmē from Techne.


That was my point too, we can provide weaker criterions of separation, accepted at least provisionally, but this does not change the fact that we do not have the clear cut criterion which we would like to have. The problem is genuine and is still there. By the way people here act as if we have such a criterion when in fact it is not true. Hard times for some (pseudo)-skeptics.
 
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Maybe you are asking the wrong questions and people are skipping them to give you an answer to the question(s) you should be asking.

Your first question, for example, asks us to come up with an assertion that can be labeled, definitively, science or pseudoscience. It’s a bad question. An assertion isn’t scientific or pseudoscientific.

“Allium cepa 6X HPUS, treats cold symptoms.” That’s an assertion that we can also label a testable hypothesis. We can determine whether or not Allium cepa has a measurable effect in cold symptoms. If the testing tends to confirm that it does, it becomes part of the branch of science known as medicine. If it doesn’t, the hypothesis should be rejected.

Continuing to claim efficacy for Allium cepa 6X HPUS when the hypothesis isn’t supported by evidence is a false claim. False claims backed only by scientific-sounding verbiage but not actual evidence is pseudoscience.

I like this angle and have heard it before. Do you know its source?
 
Of course if you define answering a question as sharing the nonsensical way it's framed, then a rejection of the nonsense ends up not counting as an answer.

I answered question #5, I think, by saying that the judge was a fool. Of course I did not answer the question of what percentage of certainty the judge should have had in this case, because to think in such terms is foolish. The question cannot be answered in the way it's put without sharing the foolishness.

Declaring a question impossible to answer is as much answer as such a question can have, whether you like it or not.
 
Hi alfaniner, welcome!

Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.

I like that.

Please, for sake of argument, let's imagine the following:

- Scientist H investigates an hypothesis: if the relationship between Matter and Consciousness might mean that a certain amount of Matter diluted in water might heal a certain disease, for Matter and Consciousness might be one and the same thing.

He makes 10 experiments and he fails. He changes the conditions in his experiment. (i.e.: instead of making it at sea level he conducts his experiment 4.000 meters above sea level)
He makes 100 experiments and he fails. He changes the conditions in his experiment. (i.e.: he adds a bit of salt to each dilution).
He makes 1000 experiments and he fails. He changes the conditions in his experiment.
He makes 1000000 experiments and he fails. He changes the conditions in his experiment.

1. Is he self-correcting himself, hence being scientific?
2. What's the number of experiments that he has to make in order to ascertain that his hypothesis doesn't work?
3. In what particular way is the hypothesis that Matter and Consciousness might be one and the same would be self-contradicting?

Thanks! :-D

How would the existence of a relationship between matter and consciousness indicate that an amount of matter diluted in water might heal any diseases?

What exactly is the experiment the scientist uses to test his hypothesis regarding the relationship between matter and consciousness?
 
Or any(?) given species for that matter. Still it doesn’t stop us behaving like platonic idealists at least some of the time.
Well Plato has nothing to do with the case, he always gets the blame for stuff he didn't say, he was quite aware of intermediate cases.

But it makes perfect sense to talk in categories even when we know that the border between categories is fuzzy, as long as we know that this is what we are doing.

We can answer the question "are you inside of the house or outside the house?" in most cases even though we know that there might be situations (like being in the doorway) where there is no clear answer to the question.

If someone suggested that it was impossible to say whether you are inside or outside of the house because there are cases where it might not be clear if you were inside or outside then we would think them a little peculiar.
 
That was my point too, we can provide weaker criterions of separation, accepted at least provisionally, but this does not change the fact that we do not have the clear cut criterion which we would like to have. The problem is genuine and is still there. By the way people here act as if we have such a criterion when in fact it is not true. Hard times for some (pseudo)-skeptics.
Well you would like to have that criterion maybe, I don't see why we would want it

I don't need a clear cut demarcation between inside and outside the house in order to be able to talk about inside and outside the house in most cases. If I am in the middle of the lawn I am definitely outside. If I am in the middle of my lounge room I am definitely inside the house. If I am in the doorway, halfway in and halfway out, then I cannot determine for sure if I am inside or outside.

That seems to cause us no confusion.

But similarly I can say that Einstein working on the theory of General Relativity is definitely science, but someone engaged in "Creation Science" is definitely not science.

But say someone has conducted a study in evolutionary psychology to determine if drag queens are a case of 'costly signalling' I might suspect that this is pseudo science but I could not be sure.

Why should this cause any greater problem than the "inside/outside" case?
 
So, applying my criteria to someone working on Creation Science I would ask:

Does he give precedence to evidence or to belief?

If it is clear to me that the person is giving precedence to belief over evidence then it is not something that falls under the definition of science, at least as I use the term.

Is he using one of the methodologies that have proved successful in the past in getting to the truth about the natural world?

If he is not then this is another sign that he is not practicing science.

Finally I have to show, not only that it is not science, but it is pseudo-science.

In this case I ask if he is trying to represent his methodologies as scientific. Perhaps the term "Creation Science" is a big hint in this direction.

So I have no doubt that my criteria can satisfy me that he is practicing pseudo science beyond reasonable doubt, even if such criteria cannot satisfy intermediate cases.
 

You have snipped away the part that came before 'then' and asked me what was the part that came before 'then'.

That makes no sense. Why didn't you just read the part that came before 'then' and comment on that?


Devhdb is using a pseudoargument. It looks superficially like an argument, but doesn’t follow the basic rules, and ignores replies that refute it.
 
Devhdb is using a pseudoargument. It looks superficially like an argument, but doesn’t follow the basic rules, and ignores replies that refute it.
But is there even ONE paper that discerns arguments from pseudoarguments with CERTAINTY?
 
I think that there are things that qualify as "nonscience" rather than "pseudoscience". Improvisational jazz, for example. But if something tries to look like science but does not follow the methods properly, that's pseudoscience.

For example. There are studies of homoeopathy that superficially appear to be scientific. There are papers published in journals that have abstract, method, results and conclusion. But the journals they are published in are not peer-reviewed. The trials are not blinded. They are conducted on a small data set.

In fairness these factors don't necessarily make the work unscientific provided they are disclosed and the confidence in the conclusion accounts for these factors.


The results are massaged until they fit the conclusion. Using poor science to support a predetermined conclusion is pseudoscientific.

This is what is key imho.
 
Science is in the method. Observation->Hypothesis->Experiment, at a high level. The key bits are really Hypothesis and Experiment.

A hypothesis must be:
1. Testable. There must be a way to design an experiment that can falsify the hypothesis. This is often the argument brought up against string theories. But this testing doesn't have to be practical to make it scientific, just possible. The work being done on these is to find practical options to test. And contrary to some statements, there's not that much money spent on these. A lot of money is spent on basic research, but that research is MUCH broader that just string theories.
2. Explanatory. The hypothesis should explain the observed facts. This includes both new and old facts...the hypothesis shouldn't just explain whatever new phenomena it's looking at, but also be consistent with past experiments and data. Note that I did not say past theories...it may overturn a current theory, but it must still adequately explain the data that led to that earlier theory. For example, Einstein didn't prove Newton wrong, so much as show that Newton's laws were an approximation of General Relativity that applied at the "usual" scales of force and speed. GR is perfectly consistent with Newton, for most day-to-day purposes.

Experiment is the other big one. Again, to be scientific, an experiment must be:
1. Specific. The variables involved need to be isolated, so that results can be correctly interpreted. This delves into large areas of logic, statistics, and so on, so there is no easy, simple answer. But this is what leads to things like placebo-controlled double-blind trials for medical interventions. On a basic level, everyone should be doing this in high-school science. When you're testing acceleration of gravity in high school physics, for example, they often have you do something like running a weighted sled down a ramp. Parts of the procedure are obviously there to remove extra variables: using calibrated weights, verifying the ramp angle is identical between runs, using the same sled each time, starting the ramp from the same location, and so forth. All of this is to try and isolate just the variables you're interested in. If you randomly set the ramp, guestimate weights, and so forth, there's no way to tell what variable may have caused the differences your seeing. This is where Sagan's Dragon in the Garage comes in to play with pseudo science, and one of the big indicators. Well-designed, failed tests, instead of being accepted, will be explained away with new variables that were not considered before the experiment. That amounts to a new hypothesis, one which that experiment cannot support. A failed homeopathy experiment, for example, can't then be used as proof of energy vibrations from fluorescent lights, say, if that wasn't a variable initially controlled in the experiment. At best, that failed experiment becomes the observation for the development of a new hypothesis, which then must be tested again. The best you can get is the current experimental results tossed out.

2. Rigorous. The results must be calculated and evaluated honestly. This ties into the last bit of the above, but is worth a mention separately too.

3. Honest. In this, I meant the experiment must be designed so that falsification of the hypothesis is possible. Ties into 1 and 2 as well, but wanted to mention it here. To borrow from an analogy I used to use:

Science is not like a job interview, or a persuasive speech. The goal isn't (or shouldn't be) to succeed. The goal is to find out what works and what doesn't. I like to compare it to vehicular safety testing. When you're testing a vehicle for crash safety, the goal isn't to declare the vehicle as safe...it's to find out if it's safe, and how safe it is. The same thing holds true for a scientific hypothesis or theory. When testing front-end collision safety, you don't put 4 feet of foam rubber in front of the brick wall the car is going to hit, so as not to hurt it....you speed the car up to 60mph and slam it into brick head-first. The way the car (the hypothesis) fails tells you more about safety, about what works and what doesn't. In some cases, General Relativity being a case in point, the theory is so well tested that we're more often seeing the wall fail then the car.

But this highlights another place where real science separates from pseudoscience. If you actually study it, pretty much every expert will tell you that GR is NOT sacrosanct. We know, for a fact, that it is at best incomplete. I hesitate to use the word "wrong", because it's more like the case of GR replacing Newton. It wasn't that Newton was wrong, just that it was an approximation within certain limits. The same is true of General Relativity, and science readily admits that.
 
Robin said:
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
@devhdb

I am still waiting for the demarcation rule that can distinguish Epistēmē from Techne with absolute certainty in every single case.

Do you have such a rule?

If you do not have such a rule, do you still consider it a useful distinction?

Bump


Sure.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Are you saying that science is and only is all that knowledge which produces technology?

a) yes.
b) no.

why?

3. Do you consider mathematics, science?

a) yes.
b) no.

why?

2. Do you consider social sciences, science?

a) yes.
b) no.

why?

3. Do you consider history, science?

a) yes.
b) no.

why?

4. Do you consider biology, science?

a) yes.
b) no.

why?

5. Do you consider geology, science?

a) yes.
b) no.

why?

"The realization that natural science is not indubitable epistēmē (scientia) has led to the view that it is technē (technique, art, technology); but the proper view, I believe, is that it consists of doxai (opinions, conjectures), controlled by critical discussion as well as by
experimental techne."
Source: Karl Popper, Conjectures and Refutations: The Growth of Scientific Knowledge (Routledge Classics [2nd ed., 2002]); Note #12, page 103.
ISBN: 0415285941, 9780415285940


Thanks.
 
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Devhdb is using a pseudoargument. It looks superficially like an argument, but doesn’t follow the basic rules, and ignores replies that refute it.

Hi Mojo, welcome to the debate.

I'm doing my best to address all the interesting contributions (while ignoring the trolls: as read in the first post I meant this dialogue to be an educated conversation) —it's all of you against me, after all :) — that I find interesting but I haven't got the time to reply to all comments, I beg you all excuse me for this.

Please, if you are so kind, could you quote any particular interesting reply that I might have ignored?

Thanks.
 
Sure.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong:

Let me step in and correct you. You've been asked for a demarcation rule that can distinguish Epistēmē from Techne with absolute certainty in every single case. You've claimed to be acceding to this request but have instead posted a series of questions. A series of questions is not a demarcation rule that can distinguish Epistēmē from Techne with absolute certainty in every single case.

Hope this helps.

Dave
 
I smell an agenda. Are you a young earth creationist or believer in the flat earth by any chance?

ETA:

This seems oddly specific



Are you this "certain homeopath"?

As read in the first post my only "agenda" is to learn from all of you.

As anyone versed in logic and debates can see, who I might be is completely irrelevant to any particular argumentation, sorry.

I hope I have answered your two questions now that I "dodged" before.
 
If we are to drop the term 'unscientific' from our vocabularies then that entails that we must also drop the term 'scientific' from our vocabulariesp

No.

We could also call everything science, a la Feyerabend's Against Method, 1975.


then it is also meaningful to describe a methodology as being not scientific.

How. Precisely.

I ask you (and to all) to be precise because you are all VERY PRECISE when you decide to judge a certain investigator as pseudoscientist beyond all reasonable doubt: either he IS or he ISN'T. There's no middle way.

Otherwise you would refer to a certain pseudoscientist as 50%, 90% pseudoscientist, right? But no, yours is a BLACK OR WHITE distinction.

Hence, please, be PRECISE as to how you determine that such an investigator deserves to be called pseudoscientist.

Or face the possibility of being sued for slander.
 
Let me step in and correct you. You've been asked for a demarcation rule that can distinguish Epistēmē from Techne with absolute certainty in every single case. You've claimed to be acceding to this request but have instead posted a series of questions. A series of questions is not a demarcation rule that can distinguish Epistēmē from Techne with absolute certainty in every single case.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Hi Dave, thanks for your contribution.

As a reminder, and so that we can properly address this, in this thread, this argumentation goes like this:

1. Cite one paper that discerns Science from Pseudscience with CERTAINTY.
2. Darat answers: "I’ll just reply on my non existent iPad. "
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13055524#post13055524
3. I reply with Episteme != Techne
4. Robin replies with "You forgot to provide your demarcation criterion to distinguish between the two."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13055602#post13055602
5. I reply with:

Are you saying that science is and only is all that knowledge which produces technology?

a) yes.
b) no.

why?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13057881#post13057881

So, the logic chain goes like this:

*INITIALLY*, Darat (or anyone of you) not only refuses to answer my petition to "Cite one paper that discerns Science from Pseudscience with CERTAINTY." but Darat's DEMARCATION CRITERION reply implies —please Darat, correct me if I'm wrong— that Science is all that produces Technology.

Hence me questioning Darat's initial reply: do you think science is that and only that which produces technology? If that's the case, please explain why.

If that's not the case, your (and, implicitly, Robin's too) iPad reply is refuted.

P.S.: I define the "demarcation criterion" (in your words, it doesn't exist such a concept in the History of Philosophy, and, in any case, but, for sake of argument...) between episteme and techne like this:

episteme aka theory: a system of ideas intended to explain something
techne aka practice: the actual application or use of an idea

and you?

Simple, right? :)
 
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Do you deny that there are a set of methodologies that have proved successful over the centuries in getting at the truth about the natural world?

If by "true" you mean "in accordance with fact or reality" then, as a true skeptic that I consider myself, the only truth I can be certain of is that I'm having the feeling [fact] that I don't know... and I could even be wrong about that.

And you?
 
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