The Trump Presidency: Part 21

[ChrisBFRPKY]

About all the exemptions that let 40,000 people in, for one. They were supposed to self-quarantine but not all did. It was not enforced by the feds.

I agree, and most of those folks were running around NYC infecting as many people as they could. Why would they do that? And why are the massive infections located within Democrat population centers? It's like Democrats were individually targeted. NYC has lost more people than most Countries.

Did the virus make it to the US? If so Trumps travel ban failed.

It was already here. I expect we would have seen more infections if the virus had daily plane loads of reinforcements though.

Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

That's dumb, but I'm not going to explain why.

It's a pearls and swine thing. There's really no point.

Do you think fewer people would be infected if there was no travel ban in place?
How does that work?

Chris B.

 

[Shalamar]

I agree, and most of those folks were running around NYC infecting as many people as they could. Why would they do that? And why are the massive infections located within Democrat population centers? It's like Democrats were individually targeted. NYC has lost more people than most Countries.

Population density.

It was already here. I expect we would have seen more infections if the virus had daily plane loads of reinforcements though.

Chris B.

Shutting down travel, and arrivals was the right thing to do. It should have happened pretty much all at once, and people arriving should have been quarantined.

Fortunately, several of the states shut things down pretty quickly when it was discovered how bad things could have been.

 

[lomiller]

It was already here. I expect we would have seen more infections if the virus had daily plane loads of reinforcements though.

Doomed to fail before it starts doesn't seem to stop Trump from making bad polciy.

I expect we would have seen more infections

Based on?

if the virus had daily plane loads of reinforcements though.

A virus doesn't need "reinforcement". Once present they spread at a rate based on the environment they find themselves in.

 

[Bob001]

.....
I realize you need to believe the President is doing poorly, but he's just not. It is intellectually dishonest to point fingers and say he should have done this or that, hindsight is always 20/20.
.....

This President could have done much more much sooner to prepare for the coming crisis, and instead rejected warnings from his own staff and publlcly claimed that there was no problem, which discouraged others from taking it seriously, too. Read some of the latest reports and get back to us.

An examination reveals the president was warned about the potential for a pandemic but that internal divisions, lack of planning and his faith in his own instincts led to a halting response.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/...s-trump-response.html?searchResultPosition=15

The U.S. was beset by denial and dysfunction as the coronavirus raged. From the Oval Office to the CDC, political and institutional failures cascaded through the system and opportunities to mitigate the pandemic were lost.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ronavirus-government-dysfunction/?arc404=true

U.S. intelligence agencies were issuing ominous, classified warnings in January and February about the global danger posed by the coronavirus while President Trump and lawmakers played down the threat and failed to take action that might have slowed the spread of the pathogen, according to U.S. officials familiar with spy agency reporting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...9d8cda-6ad5-11ea-b5f1-a5a804158597_story.html

WASHINGTON — White House economists published a study last September that warned a pandemic disease could kill a half million Americans and devastate the economy.

It went unheeded inside the administration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/business/coronavirus-economy-trump.html

Government exercises, including one last year, made clear that the U.S. was not ready for a pandemic like the coronavirus. But little was done.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-outbreak.html

And there's plenty more.

 

[Aridas]

Perhaps you should concentrate on the travel ban from China put in place late January and go from there. Nick nacks and cherry picking won't get you where you want to be.

Chris B.

It's just hilarious that you would include "cherry picking" in your post.


"Perhaps you should concentrate on [the only intelligent thing that Trump did] and [ignore all the things he should have done, but didn't]."


If the travel ban was a good idea (it was), then it should have been obvious that the only effect of the travel ban would be to buy time, which he did not use.

It's likely worth pointing out, again, that first, the major airlines stopped their flights. Only after that did Trump order a travel ban. Even though it can be called a travel ban, the terms were so loose that, what was it... at least 2000 people were allowed to fly here from China during that immediate period? 40K since then?

There's more that could be said, but... while Trump does get credit for doing it at all, the credit is extremely small, given the actual circumstances at hand, and overwhelmingly outweighed by nigh everything else, given that he's done nigh everything else horribly wrong.

The title of the order is:

"Proclamation on Suspension of Entry as Immigrants and Nonimmigrants of Persons who Pose a Risk of Transmitting 2019 Novel Coronavirus"

I just sank your battleship.

Chris B.

Hmm? From that -

Sec. 2. Scope of Suspension and Limitation on Entry.

(a) Section 1 of this proclamation shall not apply to:

(i) any lawful permanent resident of the United States;

(ii) any alien who is the spouse of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident;

(iii) any alien who is the parent or legal guardian of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that the U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident is unmarried and under the age of 21;

(iv) any alien who is the sibling of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that both are unmarried and under the age of 21;

(v) any alien who is the child, foster child, or ward of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, or who is a prospective adoptee seeking to enter the United States pursuant to the IR-4 or IH-4 visa classifications;

(vi) any alien traveling at the invitation of the United States Government for a purpose related to containment or mitigation of the virus;

(vii) any alien traveling as a nonimmigrant under section 101(a)(15)(C) or (D) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15)(C) or (D), as a crewmember or any alien otherwise traveling to the United States as air or sea crew;

(viii) any alien seeking entry into or transiting the United States pursuant to an A-1, A-2, C-2, C-3 (as a foreign government official or immediate family member of an official), G-1, G-2, G-3, G-4, NATO-1 through NATO-4, or NATO-6 visa;

(ix) any alien whose entry would not pose a significant risk of introducing, transmitting, or spreading the virus, as determined by the CDC Director, or his designee;

(x) any alien whose entry would further important United States law enforcement objectives, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their respective designees based on a recommendation of the Attorney General or his designee; or

(xi) any alien whose entry would be in the national interest, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their designees.

(b) Nothing in this proclamation shall be construed to affect any individual’s eligibility for asylum, withholding of removal, or protection under the regulations issued pursuant to the legislation implementing the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, consistent with the laws and regulations of the United States.

 

[Aridas]

The fact remains the travel restrictions have saved lives.

Sure. Nowhere close to as many as advertised, though. They were weak, late, measures weren't actually taken to deal with elsewhere in anywhere close to a timely manner, to the point where there's stories of known COVID cases just being allowed into the country without restriction, tracking, screening, or otherwise even trying to address the situation, and Trump caused quite a bit of panic with the way he did the Europe ban, for example, which was so very, very late that it pretty much had no chance of doing practically anything positive (and could well have actually made things worse than they would have been because of how badly it was handled).

Travel ban from Europe maybe? Ireland, the UK?

Funny thing about that. Remember how the European countries with Trump properties like Ireland and the UK were specifically exempted from the Europe travel ban, despite having significantly more cases than many of the other countries banned and Trump trying to pass off the reason as them having practically no cases?

 

[Minoosh]

As noted upthread you really should have looked up the actual order and how it was applied instead of this silliness. The other members who posted were absolutely correct.

This is the same poster who claimed the early Euro ban affected the UK when it didn't. Yes, the UK was added later but IIRC the poster refused to acknowledge that this was a later order.

I'll call out Trump opponents for this kind of manipulation when that occurs too.

Reciting the title of the China order and acting as if it were a ban may have been dishonest but may simply be a function of where he gets his news.

But in Trump's defense, I don't really think he has the option of banning U.S. citizens from the U.S., despite his claim of total authority. Pretty sure he could order a quarantine though.

 

[Minoosh]

I agree that the ban was on all aliens, not just Chinese nationals, who had been to China in the last couple of weeks. But it was an ineffective ban because there were so many exemptions that it had as many holes as Swiss cheese. Chinese nationals were allowed to come in as long as they were legal residents, the spouse of a legal resident, the parent, guardian, or sibling of a legal resident or a foreign government official or immediate family member of an official.

Yep, where were plenty of vectors but I don't think the ban was useless. It probably did work to a certain extent.

But, as usual, Trump was late to the prom:


https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/04/airlines-suspended-china-flights-before-trump-did/

Just as the airlines acted before Trump, the NCAA, NBA and MLB sounded the alarm before he did. With those organizations taking such a hit in revenue I knew it was serious.

 

[Aridas]

This is the same poster who claimed the early Euro ban affected the UK when it didn't. Yes, the UK was added later but IIRC the poster refused to acknowledge that this was a later order.

I'll call out Trump opponents for this kind of manipulation when that occurs too.

Reciting the title of the China order and acting as if it were a ban may have been dishonest but may simply be a function of where he gets his news.

But in Trump's defense, I don't really think he has the option of banning U.S. citizens from the U.S., despite his claim of total authority. Pretty sure he could order a quarantine though.

Quarantine, screening, testing, and probably a bunch more. I'm honestly not going to go hard on Trump about people being allowed to come over in the first place, of course, but I do find the attempt by Trump and his sycophants to incredibly overstate how bold and effective Trump's few positive actions have been while trying to ignore the mountain of bad things that Trump and his Administration have done to be disingenuous, at best, with too much of the rest of the GOP taking their lead from them.

Instituting a travel ban *after* all the major airlines already stopped flights is not bold. It's not particularly meaningful. Much like invoking the DPA to handle things only after GM/Ventec already got everything handled and had just given up on waiting for the White House to actually do its job isn't bold or meaningful.

 

[Lurch]

It's not too difficult to accept that with fewer infected people coming into the country, fewer people were infected.



I expected as much.



Travel ban from Europe maybe? Ireland, the UK? Stuff like that. I realize you need to believe the President is doing poorly, but he's just not. It is intellectually dishonest to point fingers and say he should have done this or that, hindsight is always 20/20.

However that said I realize it is still no comfort to those who can't stand the President or his supporters. Perhaps those folks can imagine what Joe Biden would have done to protect them in January given he's a fair judge of xenophobes and all. Or perhaps Nancy Pelosi? Hug a Chinese person etc.....How clever.

Chris B.

Why has the US surged ahead of the rest of the world in total infection numbers? And remember that the US had a bit more warning than most, what with the ball getting rolling later there than in other hotspots round the globe. When the dust settles, I wonder how her per capita infection rate will compare. Already it dwarfs that of China, unless the Chinese are under-reporting by a factor of six or more...

That the "Greatest nation" is seemingly doing worse that the *originating* country points a sternly accusing finger at a criminally incompetent leadership.

 

[Aridas]

I realize you need to believe the President is doing poorly, but he's just not. It is intellectually dishonest to point fingers and say he should have done this or that, hindsight is always 20/20.

Ahh, right. Just because this is... special.

Sorry, Chris, we're not like right-wing propaganda addicts.

I truly, honestly, wish that Trump had done a good job, and would have been very happy to put "handled a nasty pandemic well" into the unhappily small list of actually positive things that he's done. I have been quite happy, like I ever am, to offer praise for good things done, while keeping that separate from criticisms for bad things done. Indeed, I have offered praise all along when I see him do actually good things.

Trump ****** this up, though, so very, very badly.

Trump and his administration did like a dozen major things to sabotage the US' ability to respond to a pandemic well before all this.

Trump was still trying to structurally sabotage the ability to respond long after he was informed of the danger of COVID-19.

Trump was directly informed of the danger of COVID-19 back on December 22. The much vaunted Chinese travel ban was in late January. Other than the travel ban, Trump derailed and stopped the attempts to actually do things to respond until the stock market crashed. Even then, it took until mid-March for federal agencies to start actually getting in gear. By mid-March, South Korea already had it pretty well contained.

On the testing front, to offer a comparison - under the Obama Administration, in the first month after a disease event had its first known case, a million tests were created and deployed. For the Trump Administration? After about 2 months, a mere 30K people had been tested because of the Trump Administration screwing things up that badly. Of note, Trump was outright refusing to accept something like 200K tests offered during that time and openly stated that he liked the numbers low. Lots more can be said on the testing front, but Trump managed to utterly waste the window of opportunity to minimize the spread and contain the problem as he adopted a strategy of downplaying the problem and hoping that the problem would just go away, while outright encouraging the sale of necessary supplies to other countries to take advantage of the rising cost of necessary supplies.

There's lots and lots more that can be said, but the really short summation is that Trump is getting criticism because he's done an absurdly terrible job. Not the worst on the planet, sure, but we're the USA! By just about every measure, we absolutely should be handling this better than pretty much any other country in the world! AND leading the world to get through this crisis!

Instead? We've got a massive mess, absurdly huge amounts of taxpayer dollars being utterly wasted, and the world seeing us as an example of what not to do (if not outright evil as they think that necessary supplies are being outright stolen from them en route) because Trump and the GOP have ****** it up so bad.

 

[fishbob]

Or a multiple choice. Which of the following do you think is the origin of COVID19

a) lab
b) natural mutation of exising virus in humans
c) pangolins and bats
d) other
e) don't know

Nobody likes to pick e.

Previously posted my theory, a solid D. In summary:
Dying elephant fart passed virus to trophy elephant tail grabbing big game hunter, who incubated the disease for years - similar environment after all (giant rectal orifice), until the poor viruses couldn't take it anymore and hopped to some Chinese garment factory representatives begging audience with his sister.

 

[Stacyhs]

I agree, and most of those folks were running around NYC infecting as many people as they could. Why would they do that?

I'd ask for a citation for that claim but we both know you don't have one. It's what I call an arsefact because that's where it's pulled from.

And why are the massive infections located within Democrat population centers? It's like Democrats were individually targeted. NYC has lost more people than most Countries.

Because the virus knows a Dem from a Republican and the virus targets libs. Ask a silly question and get a silly answer.

Let's see if I can walk you through this:

1. Urban areas tend to be largely Democrats while rural areas tend to be Republican.

2. Urban areas are densely populated while rural areas are not.

3.Large cities tend to have a lot of commuters traveling some distance on
crowded public transportation that rural areas do not.

4. Covid 19 spreads from person to person by close contact to an infected person. (See where this is going?)

5. Cities, regardless of being Democrat or Republican, will always have the
highest number of cases/deaths from a highly contagious virus.

I know Trump has said Covid 19 is "very smart" but guess what? Viruses don't think. They are neither smart nor stupid. They don't know the political leanings of the bodies they infect.

It was already here. I expect we would have seen more infections if the virus had daily plane loads of reinforcements though.

Chris B.

I agree. But, as previously stated, most airlines had already cancelled flights from China. I expect we would have seen less infections if Trump had not downplayed the seriousness for the following several weeks. During those weeks he was golfing and holding rallies where he told the faithful “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”

JAN 22
“We have it totally under control. ... It’s going to be just fine.”

JAN 30
“We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five. And those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for it. So that I can assure you.”

FEB 24
“The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. … Stock market starting to look very good to me”

FEB 25
“You may ask about the coronavirus, which is very well under control in our country. We have very few people with it, and the people that have it are … getting better. They’re all getting better. … As far as what we’re doing with the new virus, I think that we’re doing a great job.”

FEB 26
“And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done."

FEB 28
“It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”

MARCH 2
"We had a great meeting today with a lot of the great companies and they're going to have vaccines, I think relatively soon.”

MARCH 6
“Anybody that needs a test, gets a test. They’re there. They have the tests. And the tests are beautiful.”

MARCH 6
[Holding rallies] “doesn't bother me at all.”

MARCH 9
“So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on.”

MARCH 10
“And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”

MARCH 12
“It’s going to go away. ... The United States, because of what I did and what the administration did with China, we have 32 deaths at this point … when you look at the kind of numbers that you’re seeing coming out of other countries, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it.”

Donald J. Trump

I can quote more but if you don't get it by now, you aren't going to.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I'd ask for a citation for that claim but we both know you don't have one. It's what I call an arsefact because that's where it's pulled from.



Because the virus knows a Dem from a Republican and the virus targets libs. Ask a silly question and get a silly answer.

Let's see if I can walk you through this:

1. Urban areas tend to be largely Democrats while rural areas tend to be Republican.

2. Urban areas are densely populated while rural areas are not.

3.Large cities tend to have a lot of commuters traveling some distance on
crowded public transportation that rural areas do not.

4. Covid 19 spreads from person to person by close contact to an infected person. (See where this is going?)

5. Cities, regardless of being Democrat or Republican, will always have the
highest number of cases/deaths from a highly contagious virus.

I know Trump has said Covid 19 is "very smart" but guess what? Viruses don't think. They are neither smart nor stupid. They don't know the political leanings of the bodies they infect.



I agree. But, as previously stated, most airlines had already cancelled flights from China. I expect we would have seen less infections if Trump had not downplayed the seriousness for the following several weeks. During those weeks he was golfing and holding rallies where he told the faithful “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”


Donald J. Trump

I can quote more but if you don't get it by now, you aren't going to.

There was a lot of misinformation about the virus coming from China and the WHO. I wouldn't say that New Yorkers infecting each other was an "arsefact" as alternatively you'd have to argue that every new case of Covid-19 arrived on a plane. I suspect the large scale infection was due to the early misinformation about the virus. However, Coastal cities have been hardest hit in the US.
I suppose it could be horribly bad luck that these particular cities are marked in Blue during elections but whatever the reason I'm sure glad to be in a "flyover state". It's difficult to accept but this virus may end up making a change to voter demographics in some areas.

We will get thru this. Our economy will bounce back as Globalism has finally been revealed for what it is, a shortage of vital interests. I expect to see many major startups and many products that were made elsewhere before will be made in the USA again after all is said and done.

Chris B.

 

[Aridas]

During those weeks he was golfing and holding rallies where he told the faithful “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”

Well...this is tangential, but a bit relevant to what you just said, conveniently.

Trump Campaign Sues Small Wisconsin TV Station Over Critical Super PAC Ad

Yup. The Trump campaign is on the attack in relation to that Priorities USA ad.

For the fun of it from that, though...

Fuchs also said that, to his knowledge, the suit had not actually been served yet. “They had 10 inches of snow up there last night,” he noted, referring to Rhinelander, Wisconsin.

 

[Craig4]

The title of the order is:

"Proclamation on Suspension of Entry as Immigrants and Nonimmigrants of Persons who Pose a Risk of Transmitting 2019 Novel Coronavirus"

I just sank your battleship.

Chris B.

Funny you left the date of the proclamation off. Is it because leaving the date on would be proof positive of too little too late.

 

[Aridas]

I wouldn't say that New Yorkers infecting each other was an "arsefact" as alternatively you'd have to argue that every new case of Covid-19 arrived on a plane.

That's a significantly different claim than your claim that they were running around infecting as many people as they could. And you know it.

 

[Craig4]

There was a lot of misinformation about the virus coming from China and the WHO. I wouldn't say that New Yorkers infecting each other was an "arsefact" as alternatively you'd have to argue that every new case of Covid-19 arrived on a plane. I suspect the large scale infection was due to the early misinformation about the virus. However, Coastal cities have been hardest hit in the US.
I suppose it could be horribly bad luck that these particular cities are marked in Blue during elections but whatever the reason I'm sure glad to be in a "flyover state". It's difficult to accept but this virus may end up making a change to voter demographics in some areas.

We will get thru this. Our economy will bounce back as Globalism has finally been revealed for what it is, a shortage of vital interests. I expect to see many major startups and many products that were made elsewhere before will be made in the USA again after all is said and done.

Chris B.

The deaths certainly aren't enough to tip the electoral scales and polling indicates that the governors who took decisive action early on, maintained their credibility and kept the public informed aren't suffering politically.

The Trumptrash governors however aren't doing so well. DeSantis in Florida is taking it in the shorts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ericas-governors-shows-what-trump-doesnt-get/

Being as DeSantis went on record many times saying he was taking his ques from the Stupid Bitch in Chief, that might be a problem for Trump and his Trumptrash in November.

 

[Tolls]

Travel ban from Europe maybe? Ireland, the UK? Stuff like that.

That was mid-March, not February.