theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
It's a little phenomenon I like to call "ABAAF".
Cont: 2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part IV
- Thread starter xjx388
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It's a little phenomenon I like to call "ABAAF".
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
You are claiming that people like Delvo haven't made the claim that Trump (the furthest from his political ideal) is actually better than Biden (the closest candidate to his political ideals who is still in the running)? That's funny, I could swear he said it again today...
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wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
It's almost like there are more ways to affect an election than just voting. I know, complicated idea, but I'm confident you can understand it if you think about it a bit.
Suddenly
No Punting
Trump's apparent lack of decline is because he wasn't much to begin with and he's immune from the stress of the job because he doesn't really deeply care about anything at all. As a president he basically a mildly disinterested hobbyist.
Plus paint doesn't age.
The idea that we are essentially voting for the people who will fill the vacuum of a incapable president seems to me spot on. It is also the best reason to vote for Biden.
Suddenly
No Punting
I'm pretty sure that votes are all that count when a candidate's main if not sole virtue is that he is "electable."
The_Animus
Illuminator
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2006
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- 3,590
They said Biden is worse on the narrow topic of military expeditionism. That is not the same as saying Trump is better overall, nor that they will vote Trump or that they support furthering Trump's agendas.
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
They have made other claims in other threads about different ways they believe in which Trump is better for healthcare among other things. By fighting so hard against one candidate in a 2 person race, they are supporting the other.
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
Not there yet? Let me help you out a bit: sometimes, one can influence other people to vote a different way. In the US, for instance, it was shown that Putin put a lot of effort into affecting the 2016 election despite his having no vote at all. Mind-blowing, I know! In the run up to the 2020 election, people who backed a failed candidate (who's sole virtue was that he'd bring out the lost tribe of the far left...despite that not happening in 2016 or this year) have been working very hard to make people think that Biden is unelectable by various false or dubious methods. It's not unreasonable to think that they may have a greater effect against a candidate than they had for Sanders.
Suddenly
No Punting
No real difference between foreign paid propagandists and people that think Biden just sucks then? Or literally the same? Here I was thinking that this sort of hostility to domestic critics was a bad thing.
When y'all declared Biden electable you knew that some on the left that are borderline Democrats (and some unaligned populists) weren't voting for him, didn't care for him and assumed they were free to have an opinion. So I guess if they make the difference then Biden is still electable except that enough people didn't like him or vote for him.
I mean, I'm electable if everyone votes for me and sings my praises and ignores everything bad about me. I'm not Trump, and that should be enough.
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
You seemed confused that anything other than one vote per person was a way to influence an election. Do you understand how you were wrong yet?
Who exactly "declared Biden electable"? When more voters pick one candidate, that demonstrates that this candidate is electable. Oddly enough, on every national stage Sanders doesn't make the grade in this regard. Yet rather than build him up, his supporters rage against everyone else for not picking their guy. When that (entirely predictably) fails to convince people to vote for the guy, Bernie Bros then do everything they can to make the remaining guy closest to their ideals lose. One would have hoped those folks would have learned that cutting off their nose to spite their face gives them a worse outcome, here we go again.
ftfy. In an alternate timeline, Sanders would have done the legwork to reach out to minorities and the south and moderates, and he'd be the electable guy. But in this one, Sanders didn't, so the guy who people are voting for (and who leads Trump and Sanders in virtually every poll) is electable.
Venom
Philosopher
Off the wall ridiculous.
Elagabalus
Philosopher
- Joined
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- 7,051
Over on "The Hill" YT, Krystal Ball and that other guy are extolling the virtues of Joe Rogan almost daily.
Suddenly
No Punting
Still sure you count votes and that is it.
Wait... so just counting votes now?
Sanders failed miserably as a candidate and should have not ran. His failure to learn the core lesson of 2016 and repeating his errors makes him as responsible as anyone for the worst Democratic nominee since maybe Hubert Humphrey.
I didn't mention Bernie in any of these earlier posts. For most people who maybe would vote Sanders but won't vote Biden (the hard left and some labor populists) Sanders was the acceptable compromise candidate to bring them into the party. The party voted to go right instead. With Sanders we'd be putting up with the same thing from the neverTrumpers that might have been drawn in with Biden. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
To paint all of this as petulance misses the point in quite a large way. I'll vote for Biden because he'll have more competent people around him, but I won't start acting like he isn't a creepy right wing ninny who would be a footnote if Obama wasn't forced to take him off the discard pile.
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
What "lies" are being told?
A poll showed that a significant number of Sanders supporters (~15%) would be quite happy voting for a bigot who's activities will see millions of people lose health coverage and a supreme court that will act to both increase voter suppression and allow more abuses of basic rights. What about that is a lie?
I used the term "establishment democrats" to refer not to the rank and file voters, but those at the top... the Democrat politicians, the party leaders, high-level volunteers, etc.
In other words, would the BernieBros claim "We could have won, but those other party leaders/volunteers/etc. weren't committed enough to the cause!"
Sanders lost the 2016 Democratic primaries.
The Democrats.. the people that would supposedly be the most receptive to Sander's message. And he couldn't even convince the majority of them to give him a chance. Yet BernieBros somehow think he would have been able to convince enoughy of the general electorate (which has plenty of right wing and, you know, non-left-wing voters) to make him president.
Yup... certainly looks like they were expecting those lost tribes to show up.
Jesus christ on a pogo-stick. What a friggin idiotic argument.
Its amazing how someone expects to be taken seriously when they can't tell the difference between a politician who wants to expand health care to millions of Americans and one who is trying to gut health care. Or the difference between a politician who wants to reduce carbon emissions and one who wants to is doing everything he can to promote fossil fuel usage.
Actually no, he's not.
His signature "Medicare for all" plan is actually one of the least popular options.... more people want a universal plan (with public options) but which allows private options to exist. Which, by the way, is actually closer to what Biden is proposing.
So, you lose that one.
What about increased taxes on the rich? Yeah, people like that. But then, Sanders isn't the only one who wants to increase those taxes... Biden does too. He may have different ideas about just what should be increased, but I doubt many people care about the issue to that level of detail.
What about his "free college" plan? Well, that's not quite as popular as you might think.... Some polls may show people support the idea, both other polls show people opposed.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...s-support-wealth-tax-oppose-free-college-poll
Tuesday's Quinnipiac poll shows less public support for free college than for a wealth tax, with 52 percent of respondents saying they oppose free college and 45 percent saying they support it.
No, I think the answer is pretty simple...
BernieBros are looking at data and taking it out of context to mean something that it doesn't.
Suddenly
No Punting
I thought more than that would vote for Biden...
Yes, Trump is worse, but lets not make Biden out to be not terrible.
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
You think you might have proven your point, but what you've done is actually illustrated that you don't understand the issues.
Obamacare had protection for pre-existing conditions. Expanded subsidies/a public option/etc. (i.e. the policies that Biden was putting forward) would have dealt with those uninsured. There would be no need to go with the Berniecare "Medicare for all/waiting lists-a-plenty".
So, health care becomes the purity test... because to the hardcore BernieBro (i.e. the ones who will not support Biden), it has to be "medicare for all" or its crap, rather than saying "I'd prefer medicare for all, but I'll be happy enough with expanded care if it covers people currently ignored".
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
The 2016 election was extremely close, and there is a chance the 2020 election will likewise be a tight election.
I think hillary lost for several reasons... some of her own doing (e.g. a failure to pay more attention to certain key states), and some outside her control (such as Russian election interference.). The voters who switched from Sanders to Trump were just one of several factors. If they had decided NOT to vote for a racist con-artist who was clearly incapable of doing the job, then Hillary would probably have been president.
On the other hand, had she spent more time campaigning in states like Wisc., if the Russians had not interfered, etc. she also likely would have won. Hardcore BernieBros may have contributed to her loss, but they were not the sole cause of it.
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
Nope. Disingenuous pretense noted, but I have enough faith in your intelligence that I'm confident you understand that voting is not the only way to influence an election.
Nope. Goalpost move noted, but I have enough faith in your cognitive abilities that I'm sure you are not confused by different claims having different metrics and proofs. 'Whether one candidate is electable' is different from 'can people who aren't allowed to vote or choose not to vote affect the outcome?' But, again, that's so painfully trivially obvious that I am sure even you are not confused by it.
Ok, so you aren't Bernie or bust. Which other Democratic candidate -that is by any measure closer to the man you are working to defeat than Trump- did you have your heart set on?
I honestly keep trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but being unable to see the difference from going 'significantly left but not all the way left' and going 'right' is really making that hard. Please, help me out here.
Gotcha. It's not petulance, it's....something that sounds, looks, tastes, feels, and smells like petulance, but is different because while you say you will personally vote for Biden you will also be doing everything you can to convince people that they should not vote for Biden. Thereby, you hope to bring about another Trump victory but be able to wash your hands of it because you personally didn't vote the way you told everyone else they should vote. Yeah...that's a great plan.
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
Which "border" are you referring to? The Democrats close to the political center? Those on the far right?
The fact is, no candidate will get universal appeal from each and every Democrat (or democratic-leaning) voter. Yes, some will dislike Biden because they think he is out of touch. Some would dislike Warren because she's a woman. Some would dislike Sanders because he's like an aging hippy who doesn't recognize the 60s are over. Some might dislike Buttigieg because, you know, ewww... gay sex.
Yes, Biden will make mistakes. Yes, there will be things that the Republicans will capitalize on. But then the same thing can be said whomever becomes the candidate.
I think the reason BernieBros get criticized so much is because many of them seem to be completely out of touch with reality... characterizing Biden as "a Republican is Democrat's clothing", and are willing to let their mis-understanding factor into their voting choices.
There is no guarantee that Biden is going to win the election. Those that like him can point to a couple of things in his favor... polls showing Biden beating Trump by a bigger margin than Sanders, studies that suggest candidates closer to the political center usually have more success in an election.
That doesn't necessarily mean Biden is guaranteed to win the election, nor does it mean that Sanders would have lost had he become the candidate.
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Just to poke at this a little, I think that it's well worth also pointing at how certain people have been doing their best to remove that vote from persons who aren't so likely to vote for their preferred candidate.
I think it might be of more note to poke at the decades of domestic smear jobs done on Hillary, honestly, when it comes to things outside her control. The Russian efforts likely shifted just enough to get Trump to win, but the effect there is more like the tip of an iceberg, with the GOP efforts being the not so visible main part of the iceberg.
One of the lesser factors, though. Even when it comes to Democrats, though, Democrats who were not Sanders supporters who voted for Trump were much, much more numerous than Sanders supporters who voted for Trump, IIRC.