Should we fear Bernie?

[Upchurch]

Anecdote time. Take it for what it’s worth.

This last week, an uncle on Facebook laid into Sanders about how he was going to kick some large number of people off their health insurance. I asked him what he meant, as the plan I heard was to get everyone on to health insurance. Yeah, he said, on to government-run health insurance and who needs that boondoggle? He likes his insurance just fine and doesn’t want Bernie to screw with it.

At this point, knowing that my uncle had been in the military and spent his career working for the State of Illinois, I asked him what insurance he has now. He said Medicaid and some vet’s insurance, both of which are government-run health insurance, not private insurance companies.

After recovering from my facepalm, I pointed out that what Sanders wanted to get everyone on a plan like the one he likes so much. Worse, Trump was actively trying to defund that very same insurance away from him.

I trailed out of the conversation at that point and let one of his other FB friends duke it out over how ridiculous my uncle was being.

 

[dann]

We feel pretty good about it. We get a lot for the money.

The racists tend to get upset whenever a little of that money is used to feed a refugee from abroad, but it doesn't seem to bother most people much. Back in 1972, a political party was founded (Wikipedia) on the ideology of tax resistance. In the course of a few years it turned into an anti-immigration and later on an anti-Muslim party instead.

 

[dann]

Bernie constantly says he wants the USA to me more like Scandinavia.

Well, Scandinavia has a 54% income tax on folks who make $66,000 or more. And they have a 25% sales tax.

Do we really want that? Even if means free college & healthcare?

Obviously if you're poor and sick, this is a great deal.

But if you're lower middle class and reletively healthy, this **** would totally such ballz.

Here's one that you'll love, Hercules56:
Fareed Zakaria: I want to talk about Bernie Sanders (CNN, March 1, 2020) 4:25 min.

I'll let you enjoy it before we start taking it apart ...

 

[dann]

The conservative NYT columnist and author of the book The Decadent Society argues for Sanders.
The Hill: NYT Ross Douthat: The conservative case for Bernie? (min. 13:29)

 

[Suddenly]

We feel pretty good about it. We get a lot for the money.

There is that...

Just adding in the costs I know about, like daycare and health insurance plus my modest student loan payment puts me at about 52%

That's before hidden taxes like the employer end of FICA, unemployment, and workers' comp. Not to mention out of pocket medical expenses.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

More polling showing that moderate voters aren't opposed to Bernie:

https://morningconsult.com/2020-democratic-primary/



According to the morning consult, polled Pete supporters prefer Bernie as their #2 candidate by a slim margin. In fact, in most of these situations, the preferred #2 candidate is pretty close, and Bernie performs well in all of them, either the #1 preferred alternative or in close second.

The conventional wisdom that the field narrowing would be bad for Bernie seems to not have any evidence to support it. Moderate supporters seem to like Bernie just fine. There is no evidence of a vast "anti-Sanders" majority.

If the goal is to prevent Bernie from winning an outright majority, candidates should stay in the race. If this polling is accurate, it seems that Bernie would pull enough 2nd choice supporters to push him over the top.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

More polling showing that moderate voters aren't opposed to Bernie:

https://morningconsult.com/2020-democratic-primary/



According to the morning consult, polled Pete supporters prefer Bernie as their #2 candidate by a slim margin. In fact, in most of these situations, the preferred #2 candidate is pretty close, and Bernie performs well in all of them, either the #1 preferred alternative or in close second.

The conventional wisdom that the field narrowing would be bad for Bernie seems to not have any evidence to support it. Moderate supporters seem to like Bernie just fine. There is no evidence of a vast "anti-Sanders" majority.

If the goal is to prevent Bernie from winning an outright majority, candidates should stay in the race. If this polling is accurate, it seems that Bernie would pull enough 2nd choice supporters to push him over the top.

Quickest way to make Americans want something?
Tell them they can't have it.

All this Media and DNC panic about Sanders is, in my opinion, only fueling his appeal.

 

[lobosrul5]

Bernie constantly says he wants the USA to me more like Scandinavia.

Well, Scandinavia has a 54% income tax on folks who make $66,000 or more. And they have a 25% sales tax.

Do we really want that? Even if means free college & healthcare?

Obviously if you're poor and sick, this is a great deal.

But if you're lower middle class and reletively healthy, this **** would totally such ballz.

Scandinavia is a pretty awesome place if $66,000 is considered lower middle class.

 

[Hercules56]

I fear what Bernie will threaten to do when Congress tells him his plans are too expensive and too dangerous to the economy.

 

[Cabbage]

I fear what Bernie will threaten to do when Congress tells him his plans are too expensive and too dangerous to the economy.

What do you actually think he'll do?

 

[Hercules56]

Huh, it appears Bernie was at one point a REAL Socialist:

"Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it means decentralization, it means involving people in their work. Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can."

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...ic-ownership-of-the-major-means-of-production



I'd like to hear him fully retract this statement and state for the record that he no longer believes that "Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production".

Otherwise I can't vote for him.

 

[Hercules56]

What do you actually think he'll do?

I think he might refuse to sign a budget that doesn't have his platform programs.

Or even threaten to let the debt default.

Blackmail, on the national scale.

 

[theprestige]

I think he might refuse to sign a budget that doesn't have his platform programs.

That is just normal presidenting, and an important part of our system of checks and balances.

Or even threaten to let the debt default.

Does he even have that authority? If he does, they can always impeach him for it.

Blackmail, on the national scale.

I'm not seeing it.

 

[dann]

Otherwise I can't vote for him.

Please, don't pretend that you'll vote for him if he does!
I don't think that he's out to get your vote anyway ...

 

[Cabbage]

I think he might refuse to sign a budget that doesn't have his platform programs.

Or even threaten to let the debt default.

Blackmail, on the national scale.

Nah, recent history shows that's more of a GOP thing. They threatened that a few times under Obama.

 

[Hercules56]

Please, don't pretend that you'll vote for him if he does!
I don't think that he's out to get your vote anyway ...

Awww....does someone questioning his values and beliefs trigger his campaign & followers?

 

[Suddenly]

Awww....does someone questioning his values and beliefs trigger his campaign & followers?

No, but disingenuous concern for the purpose of trying to make the speaker sound more credible is annoying.

"I hope Trump releases his tax returns or else I just can't vote for him."

"If Dolan doesn't sell the Knicks I'll no longer consider buying season tickets."

You know, using language to imply that the speaker is reluctantly criticizing something they support rather than just criticizing something they are at best indifferent towards.

 

[Suddenly]

Blackmail, on the national scale.

Which is what a lot of people deserve, really.

If Congress wants to be whiny about cash to just declare medicare for all to be instrumental to national/border security and use the military budget.

Imperial presidency and all that. Maybe nationalizing the healthcare and finance sectors are also important to preparing for the imminent Klingon invasion.

Then see whether Congress wants to cough up some dough.

Or whether they and the several states want to pass some constitutional amendments to keep the President from doing crap like that, to get rid of the EC, and maybe make the senate proportional to the population as well. Whoops! Looks like the internet just became a utility! Better act now before... oh dear, did I just outlaw for-profit insurance and require the companies sell at a loss to their policyholders? Yikes.


Bernie won't do any of this because he's not a lunatic, which is too bad.

 

[Hercules56]

No, but disingenuous concern for the purpose of trying to make the speaker sound more credible is annoying.

Sorry but I want Bernie to sound like a more viable option to be President.

 

[erlando]

Bernie constantly says he wants the USA to me more like Scandinavia.

Well, Scandinavia has a 54% income tax on folks who make $66,000 or more. And they have a 25% sales tax.

This is not quite accurate, at least not for Denmark.

The tax rate is progressive. You don't pay 52% of all your income. You pay 52% of your income past $66.000.

The average tax rate across all tax payers is around 34%.

Yes there's a 25% VAT. But at least the price on the item are the price you pay at the till...