Cont: The Trump Presidency: Part 19

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Ziggurat said:
I do, their numbers don't come close to matching multiple other sources I found such as my link. I think they're either wrong, or something got lost in translation about exactly what they're referring to.
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Entirely possible, it may have been a typo. When I see someone who'd know I plan to ask.
 
Ziggurat said:
Trump is doing that too.
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No, he is lying about that.
He hasn't set up any group to make plans or invited both parties to the White House to discuss it.
Just saying he would like something is not doing something.

Ziggurat said:
Every president does. Do you think his predecessors refrained from using pardon and commutation powers for the sake of the principle you're suggesting? Of course they didn't. Not a single one of them refrained from picking on a case-by-case basis. That's how pardons and commutations work.
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Whataboutism.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
No, he is lying about that.
He hasn't set up any group to make plans or invited both parties to the White House to discuss it.
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That's a strange metric.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/422517-trump-signs-criminal-justice-reform-bill

Whataboutism.
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That's not what the term means. This isn't some other issue I'm using to distract you, this is the very issue we're talking about. Picking on a case-by-case basis is the very essence of pardon and commutation powers. That's the way it has always been used. It isn't intended to be used any other way. It cannot be used any other way. If you object to Trump on this basis, then you're really just objecting to the power itself. Which is fine, if you really object to the power itself, but if that's the case then don't pretend that Trump is the problem.
 
Stacyhs said:
For a president to commute the sentence of an elected official who attempted to sell a federal Senate seat reveals an utter contempt for democracy.
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It doesn’t reveal that at all. It could reveal the president thought the sentence was too long.
What do you feel commuting the sentence of FALN members reveals. An approval of using bombs in NYC to make a political statement and an utter contempt for police and federal buildings and those who may be in them.
My opinion is it revealed President Clinton thought the sentences were too long and those who had their sentences commuted had served enough time.
 
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Ziggurat said:
That's a strange metric.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/422517-trump-signs-criminal-justice-reform-bill
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Old news.
Just before Trump started his rant about Stone's sentence being too high, Barr had a rant that *liberal" judges are sentencing harsh enough.
The DOJ directive to charge defendants to the max. comes from Jeff Sessions.

If Trump wants to be seen as pardoning on proncipo, he has to do so for everyone affect by an unjust law.
Obama pardoned tons of people with small marijuana convictions.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
If Trump wants to be seen as pardoning on proncipo, he has to do so for everyone affect by an unjust law.
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Why can he not help some unless he helps all? That's a bizarre standard.

Obama pardoned tons of people with small marijuana convictions.
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But not all of them. You aren't holding Obama to the same standard you're trying to hold Trump to.
 
Trump signs order diverting water to California farmers against state wishes

The ceremonial order comes after the Department of the Interior late last year reversed its opinion on scientific findings that for a decade extended endangered species protections to various types of fish — a review that had been spurred by the order from Trump.
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Trump said the changes to the “outdated scientific research and biological opinions” would now help direct “as much water as possible, which will be a magnificent amount, a massive amount of water for the use of California farmers and ranchers.”
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"After decades of failure and delays in ensuring critical water access for the people of this state, we are determined to finally get your problem solved," Trump said, referring to the state's previous water policy as a "disgrace."
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Trump in October 2018 had ordered Interior to reconsider the scientific evidence that helped bar redistribution of the state’s water.
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https://thehill.com/policy/energy-e...s-california-water-supply-after-reversal-from
 
Trump Tweets

John Kerry and Senator Chris Murphy grossly violated the Logan Act with respect to Iran. If a Republican did what they did, there would be very serious ramifications!

“They say Roger Stone lied to Congress.” @CNN OH, I see, but so did Comey (and he also leaked classified information, for which almost everyone, other than Crooked Hillary Clinton, goes to jail for a long time), and so did Andy McCabe, who also lied to the FBI! FAIRNESS?

This is the REAL Mini Mike. He admitted, many times, that he is “a fan of Donald Trump. He’s a New York ICON.” Thank you Mike!
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

John Kerry and Senator Chris Murphy grossly violated the Logan Act with respect to Iran. If a Republican did what they did, there would be very serious ramifications!
“They say Roger Stone lied to Congress.” @CNN OH, I see, but so did Comey (and he also leaked classified information, for which almost everyone, other than Crooked Hillary Clinton, goes to jail for a long time), and so did Andy McCabe, who also lied to the FBI! FAIRNESS?

This is the REAL Mini Mike. He admitted, many times, that he is “a fan of Donald Trump. He’s a New York ICON.” Thank you Mike!
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Funny thing, Republicans already did (over Iran as well, no less), and nothing came of it. IIRC noone has ever been succesfully prosecuted for violating the act.
 
KDLarsen said:
Trump Tweets

John Kerry and Senator Chris Murphy grossly violated the Logan Act with respect to Iran. If a Republican did what they did, there would be very serious ramifications!
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Funny thing, Republicans already did (over Iran as well, no less), and nothing came of it.
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Heck, Guilliani is STILL doing it thanks to his work in the Ukraine.
 
Ziggurat said:
Why can he not help some unless he helps all? That's a bizarre standard.



But not all of them. You aren't holding Obama to the same standard you're trying to hold Trump to.
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I guess my double standard is that Obama didn't pardon people who donated to him and/or went on Fox to plead.
Obama pardoned everyone who met the set criterion.
 
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KDLarsen said:
IIRC noone has ever been succesfully prosecuted for violating the act.
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Only two people in history have been brought up on charges, and neither was prosecuted; an 1803 farmer in Kentucky and a sailor in 1853.

This isn't one of those "We use it all the time" laws.
 
Stacyhs said:
Trump, continuing to follow through on his campaign promise to only appoint the very best, has named Richard Grenell as the acting Director of National Intelligence. He is the current Ambassador to Germany. Grenell has no experience in Intelligence which makes him an odd choice...
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Also, keep in mind that as Ambassador he caused a bit of a problem when he made statements that were seen as interfering in European politics (generally seen as a no-no for a diplomat).

From: https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...-grenell-is-isolated-in-berlin-a-1247610.html
On the day he took up his post, he tweeted that "German companies doing business in Iran should wind down operations immediately." ...Four weeks later in Breitbart...Grenell essentially called for regime change. "I absolutely want to empower other conservatives throughout Europe," he said.
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...in Berlin, he has largely become isolated. The powerful avoid him. ...Few politicians...want to be seen with him.
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DER SPIEGEL focused its reporting on conversations with more than 30 sources who have come into contact with Grenell...A majority of them describe Grenell as a vain, narcissistic person who dishes out aggressively, but can barely handle criticism....They also say Grenell knows little about Germany and Europe, that he ignores most of the dossiers his colleagues at the embassy write for him, and that his knowledge of the subject matter is superficial

So not only does he not have the experience to handle a posting with National Intelligence, he is also largely a failure in his roll as ambassador.
 
Upchurch said:
Not Blagojevich. Another guy.
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We were talking specifically about Blago.

Money isn't the only thing of value to Trump. His ego, and the people who boost it, is another.
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I don't think Obama's pardons were immune to non-monetary influence of that sort (Oscar Lopez Rivera comes to mind).

But this is still rather beside the point. Pardons and commutations are always selective, saying that person B deserved one isn't an argument against giving it to person A. And the question of mixed motives isn't solvable. It suffices if there's legitimate reason, even if there's possible bad reasons, because you can always come up with possible bad reasons. Trump's conclusion that Blago's sentence was excessive is a fairly mainstream conclusion, and if voters don't like it they can do something about it. But I doubt Blago's commutation is what made the difference between TGZ voting for and voting against Trump.
 
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