Cont: The Trump Presidency: Part 19

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Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

Rod Blagojevich did not sell the Senate seat. He served 8 years in prison, with many remaining. He paid a big price. Another Comey and gang deal! Thank you to @LisaMarieBoothe who really “gets” what’s going on! @FoxNews
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True. He tried to sell it. I have to wonder if Trump pardoned Blagojevich because it was Obama's seat that he tried to sell. Just another way for him to stick it to Obama.

For a president to commute the sentence of an elected official who attempted to sell a federal Senate seat reveals an utter contempt for democracy.
 
Ladewig said:
Maybe Bloomberg will put together more attack ads along the lines of "Willy Horton"...

"Trump claims he's for law and order, but he cut years out of these criminal's prison sentences"
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Do you think anyone who supports President Trump or even is leaning toward supporting him is going to be upset that a few dozen white men with fame, money, or connections got out of prison?
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I think it could hurt him if they play up the wealth angle.

After all, at least some of Trump's rhetoric is based on the "I'm an outsider against the elites" concept. Seeing a bunch of rich people released from jail might dig into that.

By the way, this poll was taken early last year (before Pardon-Pallooza) but it shows many people (including many republicans) would object to him pardoning people associated with him.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-ame...nt-of-americans-oppose-trump-pardoning-former
Seventy-six percent of voters contacted for the March 16-17 survey said they opposed Trump extending executive pardons to his former political aides. Only 24 percent said they would approve of the pardons....Seventy-six percent of voters contacted for the March 16-17 survey said they opposed Trump extending executive pardons to his former political aides. Only 24 percent said they would approve of the pardons.
Trump is a Forrest Gump-like character... he succeeds not because of any special intelligence or abilities, but largely by luck.
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Oh, he has a special ability. He’s a fast-talking, loud-mouthed con man who honed his skills in reality TV.
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What skills did he learn from Reality TV?

Trump was not the creator of the show, and credit to making him "look good" belongs to the staff of the show. His 2016 campaign was largely a dumpster fire (with Trump making multiple gaffs), and he only succeeded through a combination of 1) Russian interference, 2) A favorable electoral college, and 3) an opponent who had been smeared almost continuously by republicans for years.
 
Segnosaur said:
May be true, but at this point I would say Assange has pretty much no credibility. After all, he has stuck to the "Russians didn't do it" story for so long (even trying to work in the Seth Rich conspiracy theory) that its hard to believe anything he says.
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Assange? No. It would all rely on what evidence can be presented.
 
Upchurch said:
Daily Kos is worth finding a supporting source.
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With a source as trustworthy as Assange, why bother? I mean seriously even if the recording comes out of Trump saying this to assange it wouldn't matter and Trump likely was a bit more circumspectly mob bossy about it.

The source doesn't matter because this is both totally believable and totally irrelevant.
 
Stacyhs said:
For a president to commute the sentence of an elected official who attempted to sell a federal Senate seat reveals an utter contempt for democracy.
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A commutation may show contempt for the original sentence, but sentencing isn't democratic. Blago served more than 8 years in prison. He hardly got off scott free. And plenty of people who aren't Trump supporters have been saying for a long time that the original sentence was excessive.
 
Ziggurat said:
A commutation may show contempt for the original sentence, but sentencing isn't democratic. Blago served more than 8 years in prison. He hardly got off scott free. And plenty of people who aren't Trump supporters have been saying for a long time that the original sentence was excessive.
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Your very own reference points out that:

U.S. District Judge James Zagel handed down a 14-year sentence to Blagojevich. Prosecutors had calculated that under federal guidelines, Blagojevich’s crimes technically qualified for 30 years to life in prison, but they asked for 15 to 20 years.

So, a sentence that was less than half of the possible maximum, AND one that was 1 to 6 years less than what the prosecutors recommended.

It should also be pointed out that his attempt to 'sell' his senate seat was not his only crime.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Blagojevich#Federal_trial_and_conviction
On August 17, 2010, he was convicted on one of the 24 federal charges, a charge of lying to the FBI
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Federal prosecutors reduced the number of counts for Blagojevich's retrial, and on June 27, 2011, he was found guilty of 17 of the 20 remaining charges...He was found guilty on all charges pertaining to the Senate seat, as well as extortion relating to state funds being directed towards a children's hospital and race track.
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So, found guilty on 18 charges total.
 
Ziggurat said:
A commutation may show contempt for the original sentence, but sentencing isn't democratic. Blago served more than 8 years in prison. He hardly got off scott free. And plenty of people who aren't Trump supporters have been saying for a long time that the original sentence was excessive.
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I didn't say sentencing was democratic. I said commuting the sentence for someone who tried to sell a federal Senate seat shows contempt for democracy. You know...the process of electing a senator .

Lots of people say lots of things. That is not evidence that it was excessive. The judge probably followed the sentencing guide just as in the case of Stone.

ETA: Segnosaur showed that, not only was it not excessive, it was quite lenient.
 
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Segnosaur said:
Your very own reference points out that:

U.S. District Judge James Zagel handed down a 14-year sentence to Blagojevich. Prosecutors had calculated that under federal guidelines, Blagojevich’s crimes technically qualified for 30 years to life in prison, but they asked for 15 to 20 years.

So, a sentence that was less than half of the possible maximum, AND one that was 1 to 6 years less than what the prosecutors recommended.
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I don't think you understand what "federal guidelines" mean. It's a system for calculating sentences, but it's a system that prosecutors have to interpret. There's a lot of subjectivity and leeway with how prosecutors interpret and apply those guidelines. It's not hard for prosecutors to come up with recommended sentences that conform to the guidelines (as interpreted by the prosecutor) but which are still excessive.
 
Stacyhs said:
I didn't say sentencing was democratic. I said commuting the sentence for someone who tried to sell a federal Senate seat shows contempt for democracy.
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I know that's what you said. But you're wrong about what you said because sentencing isn't democratic.

Lots of people say lots of things. That is not evidence that it was excessive. The judge probably followed the sentencing guide just as in the case of Stone.

ETA: Segnosaur showed that, not only was it not excessive, it was quite lenient.
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He showed nothing of the sort. He only showed that the prosecutor didn't think it was excessive, nothing more.
 
Ziggurat said:
I don't think you understand what "federal guidelines" mean. It's a system for calculating sentences, but it's a system that prosecutors have to interpret. There's a lot of subjectivity and leeway with how prosecutors interpret and apply those guidelines. It's not hard for prosecutors to come up with recommended sentences that conform to the guidelines (as interpreted by the prosecutor) but which are still excessive.
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Exactly what is excessive about the sentence? Can you supply comparable cases that received lesser sentences?
 
Ziggurat said:
I don't think you understand what "federal guidelines" mean. It's a system for calculating sentences
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I understand quite well what 'federal guidelines' mean.
but it's a system that prosecutors have to interpret. There's a lot of subjectivity and leeway with how prosecutors interpret and apply those guidelines.
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Not as much subjectivity as you might think.

The prosecutors look at the number and nature of the crime (was violence involved), any criminal history, etc.

I suspect Blagojevich received such a lengthy sentence because 1) the total number of crimes demanded it, and 2) the number of crimes suggested a pattern of criminal behavior.

He was found guilty on multiple charges.
It's not hard for prosecutors to come up with recommended sentences that conform to the guidelines (as interpreted by the prosecutor) but which are still excessive.
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Yet the judge (whom is generally a neutral 3rd party in the proceedings) was the one who decided on 14 years.
 
Ziggurat said:
I know that's what you said. But you're wrong about what you said because sentencing isn't democratic.
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Good god. What part of "I didn't say sentencing is democratic" is eluding you? You misinterpreted what I said and now, instead of accepting that, you double down on it. Let me be as clear as I can be: SENTENCING IS NOT DEMOCRATIC. Commuting the sentence of someone who tried to sell a federal congressional seat shows contempt for the DEMOCRATIC PROCESS OF ELECTING Congress members.

He showed nothing of the sort. He only showed that the prosecutor didn't think it was excessive, nothing more.
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Wrong. He provided the guidelines, the recommended sentence and the judge's decision. What have you provided to show they were excessive? Nothing.

ETA: No, you have provided something: "Lots of people have been saying for a long time..."
That's some strong evidence there.
 
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Stacyhs said:
Exactly what is excessive about the sentence? Can you supply comparable cases that received lesser sentences?
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My source gave such an example: Nick Calabrese, who was only sentenced to 12 years. And he murdered 14 people.

Or the case of Gov. George Ryan. He was also convicted of corruption for selling government licenses, contracts, and leases. Unlike Blago, Ryan's corruption actually got people killed. He was only sentenced to 6-1/2 years in prison.

And until Trump commuted the sentence, Dick Durbin was one of the people saying that Blago's sentence was excessive.

Can you provide comparable cases to show that 8 years in prison is insufficient?
 
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Ziggurat said:
My source gave such an example: Nick Calabrese, who was only sentenced to 12 years. And he murdered 14 people.
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Calabrese also 1) Plead guilty (something that Blago didn't do), and 2) provided testimony which helped in the conviction of other criminals. (It should also be noted that Calabrese was never actually convicted of the 14 murders, so they could not actually be used in the sentencing guidelines.)

Or the case of Gov. George Ryan. He was also convicted of corruption for selling government licenses, contracts, and leases. Unlike Blago, Ryan's corruption actually got people killed. He was only sentenced to 6-1/2 years in prison.
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Perhaps instead of arguing that Blago's sentence was too long, maybe instead you should consider the possibility that Blago's sentence was the right length, and Ryan's was too short.
 
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