Merged 2019-nCoV / Corona virus

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Skeptic Ginger said:
And which masks have that size filter capability? And how long could you wear a mask that was so hard to breathe through?
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Masks don't filter out the individual viruses; that would be virtually impossible without requiring enormous pressure to push air through the required tiny, tiny pores. I am not even certain that such filtration material exists.

As you've stated, biological masks work by filtering out the much, much larger aerosols of liquid drops from sneezes and coughs that transmit these kind of viruses. An individual virus outside of one of these aerosols probably dries out so quickly that it is non-infectious.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Says the person who hasn't read the book.
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Once again, what's with the personal attacks? Seriously, can you just stop already? I'm not your enemy.

And the contents of the book aren't the issue here, the honesty of the CCP is. We can take it as given that the book reveals everything about the massacre, and now you know everything about the massacre, and it won't change a single thing about what I said.
 
Giordano said:
Masks don't filter out the individual viruses; that would be virtually impossible without requiring enormous pressure to push air through the required tiny, tiny pores. I am not even certain that such filtration material exists.

As you've stated, biological masks work by filtering out the much, much larger aerosols of liquid drops from sneezes and coughs that transmit these kind of viruses. An individual virus outside of one of these aerosols probably dries out so quickly that it is non-infectious.
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They are called HEPA filters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA


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Vixen said:
Sorry Giordano. Your attempt at put-down doesn't work because my information comes from the scientific papers. Your logical fallacy of telling us all to believe you based on an appeal to your self-proclaimed authority, doesn't wash.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3486288/

Are you going to persist in your phoney claim that 'coronavirus is not picornavirus like'?
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I gather you are still not understanding what I explained to you in the very post you quoted. You are referring to a list of categories arbitrarily created and defined by Dr. David Baltimore to help people remember which viruses have DNA genomes, which have RNA genomes, etc. It is a useful teaching tool and mnemonic, not an actual description of the biological relationships between different viruses. The supercluster you refer to is like a list of things that are longer than they are wide; by this scheme you might say that a pencil is river-like. But it is meaningless in trying to explain the important differences between pencils and rivers. Your insistence that coronaviruses are picornavirus-like is meaningless in the same way and meaningless in terms of this thread.

The publication you cite is a nice one that describes creating a protease inhibitor to interfere with proteases that many different viruses use in their replication (proteases cut bigger proteins down to smaller proteins). There are many different proteases: we have many ourselves. We even have proteases that work through the same mechanisms as do the viral ones discussed in the publication. But that doesn't mean we are related to these viruses (in any practical way other than we all originated from the same organism 3 billion years ago).

The use of "picornavirus-like" in the publication was an unfortunate mis-use of language, but probably done to emphasize how the protease inhibitor had a broad spectrum against a range of viruses. But note that alcohol also has a broad spectrum against a range of viruses. Interestingly enough alcohol is much more effective against coronaviruses and influenza viruses than against picornaviruses. As far as alcohol is concerned coronaviruses are not picornavirus-like.

Humans, picornaviruses, and coronaviruses all use nucleic acids as our genomes. Would it be useful, on this basis, to say that humans are picornavirus-like?
 
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Ziggurat said:
When you are sick and you cough, most "airborne" pathogens are not free-floating in the air, because why would pathogens essentially evaporate from your lungs? Instead, they are usually contained within liquid droplets that you cough out. Masks don't have to filter down to the size of a virus to be effective, they only have to stop the liquid droplets.
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Exactly.
 
Ziggurat said:
HEPA filters are designed to catch anything larger than 0.3 micrometers. Some viruses get above that size, but most are below it. The filters can still catch smaller stuff, but they aren't guaranteed to do so. Surgical style masks are not HEPA.
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Yes again. And in fact viruses were first distinguished from bacteria before anyone knew what they were because bacteria could be filtered out by certain materials but viruses could not.
 
Ziggurat said:
HEPA filters are designed to catch anything larger than 0.3 micrometers. Some viruses get above that size, but most are below it. The filters can still catch smaller stuff, but they aren't guaranteed to do so. Surgical style masks are not HEPA.
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HEPA filters are used to filter out viruses from the exhaust air in high containment labs. Did you read the Wikipedia article? The filtration is accomplished not only on size.


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Capsid said:
HEPA filters are used to filter out viruses from the exhaust air in high containment labs. Did you read the Wikipedia article? The filtration is accomplished not only on size.

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This is true too. I don't really think you and Ziggurat are disagreeing in any substantial way. HEPA filters do not have pore sizes able to catch individual viruses, but they can intercept viruses in larger aerosols or by additional mechanisms.
 
Giordano said:
Masks don't filter out the individual viruses; that would be virtually impossible without requiring enormous pressure to push air through the required tiny, tiny pores. I am not even certain that such filtration material exists.
As you've stated, biological masks work by filtering out the much, much larger aerosols of liquid drops from sneezes and coughs that transmit these kind of viruses. An individual virus outside of one of these aerosols probably dries out so quickly that it is non-infectious.
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It doesn't in the form of respiratory protection people can wear. Two microns is the standard filtration for N category masks (PM masks in Oz and maybe the EU?)

As for non-viable virus, there is also the dose required. Very few pathogens are so virulent that single virus particles are infectious. Hep B is one of the few in that category.

One interesting bit of trivia I've found with years of investigating influenza: most years it is droplet spread. But a few strains have been shown to be truly airborne in lab studies.

When infection control studies are done on flu, not that many people pay attention to the study's limitations that the conclusions can only be applied to the strains tested.

If this coronavirus strain were true airborne spread, there would be many more people infected. Also, we don't know yet if there are any super-spreaders like with SARS.

It does seem to be highly contagious when in close contact with people infected. Could be people are being exposed to droplets when infected people talk, not just when they cough.
 
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China's in that sour spot where its national wellness institutions are so weak that they have to enact a massive quarantine at gunpoint, and its totalitarian dictatorship is strong enough to make it happen.

Most of the places that need this kind of thing lack the government to do it. Most of the places that could do it don't need to.

And somehow, in The Atheist's bizarre calculus, the fact that America doesn't have to quarantine millions of people is a black mark on their record.
 
Belgian thought said:
These for example https://cambridgemask.com/frequently-asked-questions/.
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That site is making blatantly false claims.
What does the mask filter?
• Almost 100% of Particulate Matter (PM) including PM10, PM2.5 and PM0.3. These are the sort of particles you find in coal dust from power stations, diesel exhaust fumes, factory emissions and from construction works.

• Almost 100% of gas based air pollution, including odours such as Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs), Ozone, Benzathine, and Formaldehyde. These particulates you can find in petrol fumes, chemical emissions and from many industrial processes.

• Almost 100% of harmful pathogens such as viruses and bacteria.

• Other airborne irritants or allergens such as Dust, mould spores, some odours, pet allergens and pollen.
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You said:
I don't really see how this is relevant. It's not like these books or any of the other information that has come out about Tienanmen have led the CCP to be honest about what happened.
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I replied you are making that claim while not having read the book:
Skeptic Ginger said:
Says the person who hasn't read the book.
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Statement of fact, not a personal attack.
 
theprestige said:
China's in that sour spot where its national wellness institutions are so weak that they have to enact a massive quarantine at gunpoint, and its totalitarian dictatorship is strong enough to make it happen.

Most of the places that need this kind of thing lack the government to do it. Most of the places that could do it don't need to.

And somehow, in The Atheist's bizarre calculus, the fact that America doesn't have to quarantine millions of people is a black mark on their record.
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I think it's more an American Government would find it difficult to act with the ruthlessness that a Authoratarian government could if we had the situation in America.
Yeah, having limitations on the power of the government to act with ruthlessness really sucks.
 
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