2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part III

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Segnosaur said:
He's running AS a democrat, in a race where many of the other candidates are long-time democrats who have spent years (if not decades) building up the party.

Some people may just want to know just how dedicated he is to the party he may represent in future elections.
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Why should being dedicated to a party trump a weighing up of policy and character to decide if the candidate is the best to improve your lot and that of your fellows and nation?

The idea of holding dedication/loyalty to party in high regard seems dangerous. Assessing a candidates dedication to a set of examined ideals that the party has held traditionally is my preference.
 
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Sideroxylon said:
He's running AS a democrat, in a race where many of the other candidates are long-time democrats who have spent years (if not decades) building up the party.

Some people may just want to know just how dedicated he is to the party he may represent in future elections.
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Why should being dedicated to a party trump a weighing up of policy and character to decide if the candidate is the best to improve your lot and that of your fellows and nation?

The idea of holding dedication/loyalty to party in high regard seems dangerous. Assessing a candidates dedication to a set of examined ideals that the party has held traditionally is my preference.
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You might want to know how well he can work within the party apparatus. After all, he will need campaign workers, Democratic party resources, etc. (I seem to remember back when Trump was campaigning in 2016, he often had trouble interfacing with the Republican party as a whole. The Democrats can't afford to have problems like that. Is he going to piss off segments of the Democratic party? Is he going to forgo available resources?)

You may also want to know if he will be around should he either lose the nomination, or lose the general election. Will he bugger off (dumping on the corpse of the Democratic party afterwards), or play a part in trying to rebuild things? Clinton continued to engage in things like fundraisers for the Democrats after her election loss... Will Sanders stick around the Democrats if he loses or scurry back to Vermont and wait for his next opportunity?
 
The_Animus said:
I've tried several times, to no avail, to have an avatar bet with a certain poster who frequently says Sanders is a guaranteed loss to Trump and only a centrist can win. Considering how frequently and fervently they repeat that mantra you'd think they'd jump at the chance.
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;)
 
Segnosaur said:
You might want to know how well he can work within the party apparatus. After all, he will need campaign workers, Democratic party resources, etc. (I seem to remember back when Trump was campaigning in 2016, he often had trouble interfacing with the Republican party as a whole. The Democrats can't afford to have problems like that. Is he going to piss off segments of the Democratic party? Is he going to forgo available resources?)

You may also want to know if he will be around should he either lose the nomination, or lose the general election. Will he bugger off (dumping on the corpse of the Democratic party afterwards), or play a part in trying to rebuild things? Clinton continued to engage in things like fundraisers for the Democrats after her election loss... Will Sanders stick around the Democrats if he loses or scurry back to Vermont and wait for his next opportunity?
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IMO the genie's out of the bottle now.

DNC head Tom Perez tried his hardest to contain Sanders in the past few years. Relations are still chilly and will remain so as long as Sanders continues to push a populist and anti-corporate platform. It just doesn't sit well with them. That is at least as big a turn off (if not more) for Democrat insiders as his not being a True Democrat. Look what AOC is going through. And many of them stick to the myth that Sanders didn't do enough to support Clinton in the general. He put a whole hell of a lot of effort into getting Clinton elected, went on a nationwide tour for gods' sake.

I'd love to see Bernie forcing the disgruntled Democrats to fold and vote for him against Trump.
 
What just happened just show how important it is that the Dems make removing Trump from office their first,and only, priority. All else is secondary.
If the Democrats nominate somebody who will hand Trump reelection on a silver platter..and I am looking at your, Bernie...they will be guilty of stupidity on a mounmentla level.
 
dudalb said:
What just happened just show how important it is that the Dems make removing Trump from office their first,and only, priority. All else is secondary.
If the Democrats nominate somebody who will hand Trump reelection on a silver platter..and I am looking at your, Bernie...they will be guilty of stupidity on a mounmentla level.
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What makes this proclamation even better is that we will never know.

Even after the fact, counterfactuals will be impossible to parse. Would one candidate have done better than another? Was Trump doomed to lose regardless? Was Trump destined to win again?

Bernie could win the whole thing and people will still talk about how some other candidate might have performed better. Biden could lose it and people will say Bernie would have done even worse.
 
Ok, let's say we can't have Bernie. It's too important to screw this thing up, and a lefty is just too risky.

Unless something changes, that leaves Biden.

Biden is the great hope here? Biden who has tons of video footage of him canoodling women and young girls looking like a mega-creep? Biden who has a ready made scandal that Trump will easily blow way out of proportion (Clinton emails, anyone?)

Biden who has a disastrous voting record and sound bites going back decades that will bite him in the ass?

If there is anyone that will absolutely collapse under a campaign of vicious attack ads, it's Biden.
 
dudalb said:
What just happened just show how important it is that the Dems make removing Trump from office their first,and only, priority. All else is secondary.
If the Democrats nominate somebody who will hand Trump reelection on a silver platter..and I am looking at your, Bernie...they will be guilty of stupidity on a mounmentla level.
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To tell you the truth, I'm slightly alarmed that neither you nor Segnosaur ever bothered to answer my question.

Cabbage said:
I do have a question I'd like to ask (my apologies if I am being redundant and you have already answered this previously--I don't recall seeing it):

This is directed to the people who are strongly condemning/warning against/whatever you wish to call it a Sanders primary win. Segnosaur and dudalb, for example (based on what I have seen).

If Sanders wins the primary, will you vote for him in the general?
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It kind of makes me wonder if you would be so foolish to not vote for Sanders if he was the Dem candidate running against Trump, despite your protestations that we need to get Trump out of office.

Do you hate Sanders that much?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Ok, let's say we can't have Bernie. It's too important to screw this thing up, and a lefty is just too risky.

Unless something changes, that leaves Biden.

Biden is the great hope here? Biden who has tons of video footage of him canoodling women and young girls looking like a mega-creep? Biden who has a ready made scandal that Trump will easily blow way out of proportion (Clinton emails, anyone?)

Biden who has a disastrous voting record and sound bites going back decades that will bite him in the ass?

If there is anyone that will absolutely collapse under a campaign of vicious attack ads, it's Biden.
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And the Ukraine business oooo...that'll leave a mark.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Ok, let's say we can't have Bernie. It's too important to screw this thing up, and a lefty is just too risky.

Unless something changes, that leaves Biden.

Biden is the great hope here? Biden who has tons of video footage of him canoodling women and young girls looking like a mega-creep? Biden who has a ready made scandal that Trump will easily blow way out of proportion (Clinton emails, anyone?)

Biden who has a disastrous voting record and sound bites going back decades that will bite him in the ass?

If there is anyone that will absolutely collapse under a campaign of vicious attack ads, it's Biden.
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The sound bytes, and voting record would be more likely to hurt him if he were running as a Republican than they will hurt him with undecideds in this election.
As well as making a big deal about him being affectionate. There are many voters (myself included) who find the overreaction to that as more unbalanced than the acts themselves.

I am more concerned about his actual weaknesses (the age related ones) than his weakness as a candidate in the rust belt.

ETA I would prefer a better candidate (in terms of electability) but I dont think its Sanders
 
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Sanders problem is I just don't think he could move to the center, which he has to do to win in November. He is just too much the eternal 60's radical. That play great with the progressives, not so great elsewhere.
And Trump's whole campaign is going to be "You might not like me.you might think I am crude and obonoxious, but you have no choice but to vote for me, I am not as bad as the other guy".
Now Warren could make the move;I think she could appeal to the moderates and centrists the Dems have to win in order to win (as much as some people here want to deny that, preferring the "Lost Tribe" school of politics[that there is a massive hidden left wing vote out there) but Sanders, never.
Then there is his age and his health;and yes, that is a legitimate concern.
 
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dudalb said:
Sanders problem is I just don't think he could move to the center, which he has to do to win in November. He is just too much the eternal 60's radical. That play great with the progressives, not so great elsewhere.
And Trump's whole campaign is going to be "You might not like me.you might think I am crude and obonoxious, but you have no choice but to vote for me, I am not as bad as the other guy".
Now Warren could make the move;I think she could appeal to the moderates and centrists the Dems have to win in order to win (as much as some people here want to deny that, preferring the "Lost Tribe" school of politics[that there is a massive hidden left wing vote out there) but Sanders, never.
Then there is his age and his health;and yes, that is a legitimate concern.
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I’m not sure that age is such a big thing this time... at least not between Bernie, Biden and trump.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Sure, but the things that neolibs and conservatives can compromise on are disastrous policy. Things like endless war, big business bailouts, slashing social spending, deregulation, propping up private health care at the expense of ordinary people, and so on.
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Can I have some of that stuff you're smoking?
SuburbanTurkey said:
The average person Republican sees political compromise as a dirty word because they rightly know it means they are about to get screwed. Neolibs offer token progressive policies as they trade away the farm when they compromise with the cynical right.
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"Compromise" actually became a serious liability ever since Moscow Mitch said their primary goal was a one-term president. The 2010 midterms establsished that as GOP orthodoxy.
 
dudalb said:
Sanders problem is I just don't think he could move to the center, which he has to do to win in November. He is just too much the eternal 60's radical. That play great with the progressives, not so great elsewhere.
And Trump's whole campaign is going to be "You might not like me.you might think I am crude and obonoxious, but you have no choice but to vote for me, I am not as bad as the other guy".
Now Warren could make the move;I think she could appeal to the moderates and centrists the Dems have to win in order to win (as much as some people here want to deny that, preferring the "Lost Tribe" school of politics[that there is a massive hidden left wing vote out there) but Sanders, never.
Then there is his age and his health;and yes, that is a legitimate concern.
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Seems to play great among Democrats in general. They can't all be progressives right, especially in a state like Iowa. :rolleyes:

No lost tribe in Iowa. Just Americans sick of lack of healthcare and jobs.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Every attack on him backfires on the people attempt it because they are so transparently desperate and bad faith.
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I don't believe that.

But for the sake of this post, let's say it is true. Then those seeing through the smear attempt are other Dems. I can 100% guarantee you that Republicans will *NOT* see it that way but will, instead, amplify it so much that you'll drown in decibels.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Then they will be delighted when AOC ...
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An aside: A few years ago damn few people knew who AOC was and certainly didn't associate her initials with - well - anything. Now everybody who even mildly follows politics knows who AOC is. It's a remarkable transition. And no small credit goes to the GOP media machine since they flogged on her for months. I once saw four different articles on her on the front page of TownHall, a rabid right wing outlet just shy of Breitbart on the nutty scale.
 
Sideroxylon said:
If America votes Trump in after all of this, and those shitweasels in the Senate, you deserve everything that comes to you.
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Now there's a sentiment I can fully agree with. The only difference is that I will be one of those who "deserve everything that comes to you." Damn.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
If Trump loses and isn't instantly drowned in and beggared by lawsuits, he will run for 2024 straight away, and be a constant presence on FOX.
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If Trump loses and Fox continues to piss him off as they have lately, he'll start "Trump TV" to compete with them. And like all of his other ventures, it will fail.
 
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